Pick off from the Windup

[grogdog]

LL Juniors
We tried a pickoff at 1st from the windup tonite. The pitcher was on the rubber with hands together then made a unmistakable step towards first and threw over. The ump balked him because he did not disengage. I said he didn't have to disengage according to the rulebook and our UIC (they were our umps). I even showed him the ruling from our UIC. Then he said he'd balk him everytime because he's "deceiving" the runner by standing on the rubber with his hands together. At any rate, he said he balked him because he didn't disengage so my question is can his ruling (reason for the balk) be protested?

Thanks

[SAump]

Originally Posted by grogdog

LL Juniors
We tried a pickoff at 1st from the windup tonite. The pitcher was on the rubber with hands together then made a unmistakable step towards first and threw over. The ump balked him because he did not disengage. I said he didn't have to disengage according to the rulebook and our UIC (they were our umps). I even showed him the ruling from our UIC. Then he said he'd balk him everytime because he's "deceiving" the runner by standing on the rubber with his hands together. At any rate, he said he balked him because he didn't disengage so my question is can his ruling (reason for the balk) be protested?

Thanks

Rule 8.01(a) Comment: In the Windup Position, a pitcher is permitted to have his “free” foot on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber or off the side of the rubber.
From the Windup Position, the pitcher may:
(1) deliver the ball to the batter, or
(2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick-off a runner, or
(3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides).
In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first.
He may not go into a set or stretch position—if he does it is a balk.

[ozzy6900]

Protest the call next time! Your umpire is mis-applying the rules. There is nothing deceiving about F1 standing on the rubber with his hands together. The problem is most of your amateur umpires believe that F1 cannot pick off from the windup. That is only in FED! In NCAA and OBR, F1 can pick off from the windup.

Here's the difference:

FED
When in the windup position, the pitcher may:
1. Deliver the pitch to the batter
2. Step off the rubber with the pivot foot first.

OBR & NCAA (this includes LL)
From the Windup Position, the pitcher may:
(1) deliver the ball to the batter, or
(2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick-off a runner, or
(3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides).
In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first.
He may not go into a set or stretch position—if he does it is a balk.

************************************************** ********
Show the differences to the protest committee and maybe they will be enlightened!

Or, just save yourself the aggravation and tell your pitchers to step off!

[grogdog]

Thanks for the reply.
I did protest before the next pitch and it was recorded. The ump told me after the game that it's a judgement call and can not be protested. I said it's a rules infraction and can be but I wasn't planning on following thru with it. He said he'd talk to our UIC about it but I'll believe it when I see it. I wrote the UIC and informed him of the situation but if I don't hear from him soon I'll go thru with the protest. I figured they would call a balk but they refused to believe the move is legal and when I showed him the letter from the UIC he read it then asked me how many umpire meetings (implying I'm clueless). My reply was "apparently more than you", lol. We did try the move once before and our UIC was the umpire. He didn't call a balk and the opposing team didn't argue. I guess the UIC isn't sharing info.

[TussAgee11]

At what point did your player throw to the base. I'm having a hard time visualizing how a pitcher who is facing the plate can "unmistakingly" step towards a base.

Did he start his windup (pivot foot remaining, other foot comes off, then kicks into the air, and then to the base)? Obvious balk.

Or was he righty that brought the hands together and somehow twisted his body directly towards first?

Again, I have a hard time seeing how this pitcher couldn't commit to the plate while throwing to a base. Perhaps the umpire saw some sort of commitment during the move (does the step need to be less than 45 degrees?), which would be judgement.

[cbfoulds]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

At what point did your player throw to the base. I'm having a hard time visualizing how a pitcher who is facing the plate can "unmistakingly" step towards a base.

Did he start his windup (pivot foot remaining, other foot comes off, then kicks into the air, and then to the base)? Obvious balk.

Or was he righty that brought the hands together and somehow twisted his body directly towards first?

Again, I have a hard time seeing how this pitcher couldn't commit to the plate while throwing to a base. Perhaps the umpire saw some sort of commitment during the move (does the step need to be less than 45 degrees?), which would be judgement.

Assuming RHP:
On the rubber, hands together; lifts non-pivot foot and steps more toward 1st than home [beyond 45 degrees, if you like], then separates hands and throws - no balk [except in FED].

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

At what point did your player throw to the base. I'm having a hard time visualizing how a pitcher who is facing the plate can "unmistakingly" step towards a base.

Did he start his windup (pivot foot remaining, other foot comes off, then kicks into the air, and then to the base)? Obvious balk.

Or was he righty that brought the hands together and somehow twisted his body directly towards first?

Again, I have a hard time seeing how this pitcher couldn't commit to the plate while throwing to a base. Perhaps the umpire saw some sort of commitment during the move (does the step need to be less than 45 degrees?), which would be judgement.

He was just standing on the rubber with his hands together, and had not started his motion according to the OP. A pitcher most certainly can step and throw to a base from this position. Once the pitcher begins his pitching motion, he is committed to pitch the ball from the windup. Prior to this he may legally deceive the runner by stepping and throwing to a base. Some coaches think that all deception is a balk, when deception is not necessarily illegal.

[TussAgee11]

Understood SDS. Assuming RHP, I'm just having a hard time visualizing this. I am beginning to see it.

My point was that it is (or could it be?) possible that the pitcher committed himself to the plate during this pickoff move (didn't step directly to the base comes to mind). Obviously a RHP from the windup can't lift his non-pivot foot, step directly to the plate, and then submarine to first.

Perhaps this is what the umpire saw (although not as blatant), which would be judgement and wouldn't be heard in a protest. For me, I'd have to be there to see if this move is legal or not because I'm having a hard time visualizing it, and I haven't seen the move during any of my games.

[grogdog]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Understood SDS. Assuming RHP, I'm just having a hard time visualizing this. I am beginning to see it.

My point was that it is (or could it be?) possible that the pitcher committed himself to the plate during this pickoff move (didn't step directly to the base comes to mind). Obviously a RHP from the windup can't lift his non-pivot foot, step directly to the plate, and then submarine to first.

Perhaps this is what the umpire saw (although not as blatant), which would be judgement and wouldn't be heard in a protest. For me, I'd have to be there to see if this move is legal or not because I'm having a hard time visualizing it, and I haven't seen the move during any of my games.

Right away the ump blamed the balk call on a failure to disengage. He doesn't have to. The he said he'd balk him again "for standing on the rubber with his hands together". He claimed that is deceiving the runner. It's legal to pitch from the windup at anytime, even with runners on so how is he deceiving the runner. He never stated that he started his pitching motion because he didn't. To visualize it act like your on the rubber then simply step toward your left shoulder with your toes pointing towards 1st. His foot never went back and his toes pointed directly at the base as he stepped.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by grogdog

Right away the ump blamed the balk call on a failure to disengage. He doesn't have to. The he said he'd balk him again "for standing on the rubber with his hands together". He claimed that is deceiving the runner. It's legal to pitch from the windup at anytime, even with runners on so how is he deceiving the runner. He never stated that he started his pitching motion because he didn't. To visualize it act like your on the rubber then simply step toward your left shoulder with your toes pointing towards 1st. His foot never went back and his toes pointed directly at the base as he stepped.

It seems that a lot of umpires think that bringing the hands together IS the start of the pitching motion. But it's not--without some other motion naturally associated with the pitch, bringing the hands together does not in itself commit the pitcher to deliver to home.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by celebur

It seems that a lot of umpires think that bringing the hands together IS the start of the pitching motion. But it's not--without some other motion naturally associated with the pitch, bringing the hands together does not in itself commit the pitcher to deliver to home.

In FED, bringing the hands together is the start of the pitching motion if the pitcher engaged the rubber with both hands at his sides. I know this is an OBR discussion, but that may be where the confusion lies.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by grogdog

Right away the ump blamed the balk call on a failure to disengage. .

As noted earlier, this could simply be a Fed umpire not knowing the OBR and Fed difference.

Originally Posted by grogdog

The he said he'd balk him again "for standing on the rubber with his hands together". He claimed that is deceiving the runner. .

Misinterpretation of the rules aside..

Classic case of talking too much. He must be a student of Joe Wolf