Saw this today...

[LakeErieUmp]

OK, I'm missing something here. Zack was already in the game, batting in the four-spot wtih David DHing for him. When Zack goes to bat in the three-hole he's BOO. How can he be an illegal substitute when he's already in the game defensively before he bats?

David, on the other hand, was removed as DH once Zak batted (third, fourth, wherever). When David stepped into the batter's box as a removed DH wasn't David the illegal substitute?

From there I have two further questions (and I don't have my FED books anymore as I've been out of FED for a couple years so I'm really looking for guidance on this):

1) Is David locked in as DH since Charles was the third out and David had not actually batted? If David is locked in as DH then I don't see how he's not the illegal substitute

2) Because Zack batted out of order in the third isn't that batting order now conceded because the defense did not notice at the time? That is, doesn't Zack have to continue to bat third?

3) If David was not locked in as DH (just for conversation's sake) then he can go in on defense for Charles and bat in Charles' spot. Just as (2) above then doesn't David (if he's allowed on defense) assume the fourth spot and there's no BOO, illegal substitute, or anything else?

Oh I wish my ex-witch hadn't tossed my old FED books!

[LakeErieUmp]

Steven - MUCH to not understand. Once a pitcher is entered in the lineup card he must face one batter. 3-1-1.
SO, Zack is in the game as starting pitcher. He did not substitute for anyone so he cannot be an illegal substitute! He batted out of order but he's in the game from the moment his name was on the lineup handed to PU and he's not a substitute.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp

Steven - MUCH to not understand. Once a pitcher is entered in the lineup card he must face one batter. 3-1-1.
SO, Zack is in the game as starting pitcher. He did not substitute for anyone so he cannot be an illegal substitute! He batted out of order but he's in the game from the moment his name was on the lineup handed to PU and he's not a substitute.

Zack was in the game defensively, being DH'd for by David in the four spot.. He was then substituted for Charles. Illegal substitute. He did not simply bat or bat out of order, or David would no longer be batting. Both were batting. He took Charles' position.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Zack was in the game defensively, being DH'd for by David in the four spot.. He was then substituted for Charles. Illegal substitute. He did not simply bat or bat out of order, or David would no longer be batting. Both were batting. He took Charles' position.

As Bob pointed out in post #3, Rule 2-36-3d says exactly this. A substitute is illegal when he's the player being DH'ed for and enters the lineup in a different position.

If folks don't like or understand this rule, that's one thing, but the rule clearly applies to this case. Normal illegal sub penalty applies.