Saw this today...

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by GarthB

at a 17U tournament being conducted under FED rules.

Batting order:

1. Adam
2. Bob
3. Charles
4. David as the DH batting for the pitcher, Zack

First inning, Charles was ejected for dropping an F bomb on the plate umpire after a called third strike for the third out.

A bit later in the game, it becomes apparent that the manager inserted Zak, the pitcher, for whom David was DH'ing in the three spot. The DH remains batting in the four spot.

Zak bats in the three spot in the third inning and not a word from anyone.

Zak begins to bat in the three spot in the sixth inning and the opposing coach complains. At the time of the complaint, Zak has a 1-1 count.

David is DHing for Zak, the pitcher. David and Zak are locked into the same spot in the batting order. When Zak enters the game as a batter, he MUST do so in the 4-spot in the batting order, which means David is no longer in the game (but may return, but only in the 4-spot, and for Zak). When Zak, the defensive player who was DHed for, enters the game on offense, there is no longer a DH.

If Zak bats in the 3-spot, he's BOO.

Bob

[TwoBits]

I had a similar situation last week. NBC rules, DH came in to play catcher, and a new pitcher came in to bat for himself in the previous catcher's batting position.

OBR 6.10(b) states:
...The designated hitter may be used defensively, continuing to bat in the same position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player, unless more than one substitution is made, and the manager then must designate their spots in the batting order.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

David is DHing for Zak, the pitcher. David and Zak are locked into the same spot in the batting order. When Zak enters the game as a batter, he MUST do so in the 4-spot in the batting order, which means David is no longer in the game (but may return, but only in the 4-spot, and for Zak). When Zak, the defensive player who was DHed for, enters the game on offense, there is no longer a DH.

If Zak bats in the 3-spot, he's BOO.

Bob

I think Bob explained your error best. Illegal Substitution.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by GarthB

I think Bob explained your error best. Illegal Substitution.

I seem to be in the minority here. Can someone explain why 6.10(b) doesn't apply here?

[cbfoulds]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

I seem to be in the minority here. Can someone explain why 6.10(b) doesn't apply here?

1st line of the OP: FED Rules.

[LakeErieUmp]

OK, I'm missing something here. Zack was already in the game, batting in the four-spot wtih David DHing for him. When Zack goes to bat in the three-hole he's BOO. How can he be an illegal substitute when he's already in the game defensively before he bats?

David, on the other hand, was removed as DH once Zak batted (third, fourth, wherever). When David stepped into the batter's box as a removed DH wasn't David the illegal substitute?

From there I have two further questions (and I don't have my FED books anymore as I've been out of FED for a couple years so I'm really looking for guidance on this):

1) Is David locked in as DH since Charles was the third out and David had not actually batted? If David is locked in as DH then I don't see how he's not the illegal substitute

2) Because Zack batted out of order in the third isn't that batting order now conceded because the defense did not notice at the time? That is, doesn't Zack have to continue to bat third?

3) If David was not locked in as DH (just for conversation's sake) then he can go in on defense for Charles and bat in Charles' spot. Just as (2) above then doesn't David (if he's allowed on defense) assume the fourth spot and there's no BOO, illegal substitute, or anything else?

Oh I wish my ex-witch hadn't tossed my old FED books!

[LakeErieUmp]

Steven - MUCH to not understand. Once a pitcher is entered in the lineup card he must face one batter. 3-1-1.
SO, Zack is in the game as starting pitcher. He did not substitute for anyone so he cannot be an illegal substitute! He batted out of order but he's in the game from the moment his name was on the lineup handed to PU and he's not a substitute.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp

Steven - MUCH to not understand. Once a pitcher is entered in the lineup card he must face one batter. 3-1-1.
SO, Zack is in the game as starting pitcher. He did not substitute for anyone so he cannot be an illegal substitute! He batted out of order but he's in the game from the moment his name was on the lineup handed to PU and he's not a substitute.

Zack was in the game defensively, being DH'd for by David in the four spot.. He was then substituted for Charles. Illegal substitute. He did not simply bat or bat out of order, or David would no longer be batting. Both were batting. He took Charles' position.

[newump]

what if zack had hit a single and was on 1st. then a pitch was thrown to the next batter, david, and THEN the opposing coach realized the error. is zach still out or his at bat legalized since a pitch has been thrown to the next batter?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by newump

what if zack had hit a single and was on 1st. then a pitch was thrown to the next batter, david, and THEN the opposing coach realized the error. is zach still out or his at bat legalized since a pitch has been thrown to the next batter?

Still out and restricted.

[newump]

would zach become legal at any point?? how about after he scores and then the mistake is not realized until the following inning??

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by newump

what if zack had hit a single and was on 1st. then a pitch was thrown to the next batter, david, and THEN the opposing coach realized the error. is zach still out or his at bat legalized since a pitch has been thrown to the next batter?

No. You still are trying to apply BOO enforcement to an Illegal Sub situation.

He would still be out and restricted.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

David is DHing for Zak, the pitcher. David and Zak are locked into the same spot in the batting order. When Zak enters the game as a batter, he MUST do so in the 4-spot in the batting order, which means David is no longer in the game (but may return, but only in the 4-spot, and for Zak). When Zak, the defensive player who was DHed for, enters the game on offense, there is no longer a DH.

If Zak bats in the 3-spot, he's BOO.

Bob

Except that there IS no player in the 3-spot ... and if both these players are in the game at the same time, it's not a BOO situation, it's an illegal sub situation.