Delayed CheckSwing Appeal

[UmpJM]

UMP25,

It is an "appeal"; it's just not an appeal of a baserunning infraction.

9.02
...
(c) If a decision is appealed, the umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it.

Rule 9.02(c) Comment: The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike. The manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help. Field umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire and quickly respond. Managers may not protest the call of a ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information about a half swing.

Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail.

Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in jeopardy of being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call is reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the plate umpire.

The ball is in play on appeal on a half swing.

...

JM

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

UMP25,

It is an "appeal"; it's just not an appeal of a baserunning infraction.



JM

No, it's not an "appeal." What you quoted is a misuse of the word "appeal."

There are 4 types of appeals:

1. Batting out of order
2. Batter-runner overrunning first base and not "immediately" returning (an arcane, dusty type of appeal).
3. Batter missing a base or leaving early
4. Batter missing home and not making an attempt to retouch.

Appeals are an assertion by the defense that a member of the offense didn't do something he should have done. Check swings do not fall under this categorization, and to think they do is what causes so much confusion, especially for this thread's author when he referred to a play occurring after said check swing (never mind his not realizing what continuous action is and how that was what occurred in his situation).

[Cub42]

In the 2 man system, unless BU is in A, and check is on a right handed batter, and unless you were blocked by the catcher, that is a very tough call to make from the inside. That being said, you want your partner to give you what he has. It is the runner's responsibility to know the game situation at all times. The question seems to be how the catcher handled this. It seems to me that he tug the runner first, then asked for an appeal, your partner had enough time to realize what was going on, and by calling a swing was going to create a major s--thouse. These situations call for using your game mgt. skills. It's not what was right or wrong call here, it comes down to how it was handled, and you both come out of this looking bad.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Cub42

In the 2 man system, unless BU is in A, and check is on a right handed batter, and unless you were blocked by the catcher, that is a very tough call to make from the inside. That being said, you want your partner to give you what he has. It is the runner's responsibility to know the game situation at all times. The question seems to be how the catcher handled this. It seems to me that he tug the runner first, then asked for an appeal, your partner had enough time to realize what was going on, and by calling a swing was going to create a major s--thouse. These situations call for using your game mgt. skills. It's not what was right or wrong call here, it comes down to how it was handled, and you both come out of this looking bad.

Another myth kept alive. It's no harder for me to rule on a swing/no-swing from the middle than anywhere else.

[Tim C]

What Rich said!

Plus if an umpire . . . ya'll know the rest of this refrain.

Regards,

[Rcichon]

Bob can you cite the OBR rule please? I can't find it.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by UMP25

No, it's not an "appeal." What you quoted is a misuse of the word "appeal."

Oh, another five of the 230+ errors they keep leaving in the book, huh?




Edited for tibear

[UMP25]

Exactly, Steve. This is probably a minor one, but one that can cause a lot of confusion and even problems, as illustrated herein.

[tibear]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

No, it's not an "appeal." What you quoted is a misuse of the word "appeal."

Oh, another five of the 230+ errors they keep leaving in the book, huh?

If this isn't an appeal what you prefer it be called?

As well, looking at OBR it states: in 9.02:
Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail.

The rulebook clearly states that an "insert alternative to appeal" can only take place when the PU calls a ball and when ASKED to "insert alternative to appeal". Thus, by the stricktist sense of the rulebook the PU doesn't have the right to "insert alternative to appeal" to the BU until he is asked to avoid this whole situation. The PU cannot initiate the "insert alternative to appeal" but MUST wait to be asked which allows this situation to be setup.

I know this is getting stupid but others are now getting personal on what I think is a perfectly valid question.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by tibear

If this isn't an appeal what you prefer it be called?

As well, looking at OBR it states: in 9.02:
Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail.

The rulebook clearly states that an "insert alternative to appeal" can only take place when the PU calls a ball and when ASKED to "insert alternative to appeal". Thus, by the stricktist sense of the rulebook the PU doesn't have the right to "insert alternative to appeal" to the BU until he is asked to avoid this whole situation. The PU cannot initiate the "insert alternative to appeal" but MUST wait to be asked which allows this situation to be setup.

I know this is getting stupid but others are now getting personal on what I think is a perfectly valid question.

Whoa there Slick, I was quoting what UMP25 said. I wasn't getting personal. Slow down. I have always called it an appeal as well. I was pointing out my frustration with all the so-called "errors" that keep making there way back into the book every year. I am pushing for a major re-write of the OBR book. I volunteer to do it if nobody else wants to. Just so I can quit hearing about, "oh, that's one of the 230+ errors in the rules, and we interpret it blah, blah, blah..."

[JRutledge]

One of the big problems of this web site or the internet is we have so much mental masturbation over a simple issue. If you are working a game and an appeal is likely, ask for help immediately. If you ask for help immediately you will not have to worry about the "what ifs" that might be as a result.

Peace

[jkumpire]

JR is right here.

Because there is one other thing about the play everyone is missing, players and coaches who are at least half awake are not stupid about things like this.

If it is a close check F2 will go immediately for an appeal. He won't wait around, since if he does it makes it pretty clear to everyone he thinks it was a check, and BU will almost certainly not overrule it.

If it is a close check, then both the offense and defense will know there is an appeal coming, and nothing is going to happen until the check is made.

Yes, if you hear a bench squawking in a close game go before you asre asked. But please tell me how many times this situation has happened in a game you have done (0), and how many times has a catcher waited 10+ seconds before he asks for an appeal (0)? And how many times is a BU going to overrule a PU in this situation and put a runner in such jepardy when the defense waits for two days before asking for help (0, if BU has a clue).

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by tibear

If this isn't an appeal what you prefer it be called?

Help on a half-swing. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Kaliix]

While it may not be an appeal under the summarily listed appeals in the JEA, or by the strictest of definitions, umpires as well as most others associated with the game have been calling it an appeal for so long that it might as well be.

Getting them to stop now would be like trying to those in baseball to stop calling them RBI's. It's a freaking RBI, no " 's ". Runs Batted Ins just makes no sense.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by Kaliix

While it may not be an appeal under the summarily listed appeals in the JEA, or by the strictest of definitions, umpires as well as most others associated with the game have been calling it an appeal for so long that it might as well be.

Getting them to stop now would be like trying to those in baseball to stop calling them RBI's. It's a freaking RBI, no " 's ". Runs Batted Ins just makes no sense.

An improper analogy, because help on a half-swing is NOT an "appeal" no matter how one parses it; however, RBIs = RBI--it's just putting a letter unnecessarily onto an acronym.

Oh, and I love your excuse of "umpires have been calling it that way for...". Who gives a rat's patootie? They're as confused now as they were then. I know MANY umpires who never considered that an appeal. I was never taught it was, and I don't teach that it is.

BTW, most others associated with the game believe a tie goes to the runner. I guess we're supposed to call it that way then, huh?