Delayed CheckSwing Appeal

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by UMP25

No, it's not an "appeal." What you quoted is a misuse of the word "appeal."

Oh, another five of the 230+ errors they keep leaving in the book, huh?




Edited for tibear

[UMP25]

Exactly, Steve. This is probably a minor one, but one that can cause a lot of confusion and even problems, as illustrated herein.

[tibear]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

No, it's not an "appeal." What you quoted is a misuse of the word "appeal."

Oh, another five of the 230+ errors they keep leaving in the book, huh?

If this isn't an appeal what you prefer it be called?

As well, looking at OBR it states: in 9.02:
Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail.

The rulebook clearly states that an "insert alternative to appeal" can only take place when the PU calls a ball and when ASKED to "insert alternative to appeal". Thus, by the stricktist sense of the rulebook the PU doesn't have the right to "insert alternative to appeal" to the BU until he is asked to avoid this whole situation. The PU cannot initiate the "insert alternative to appeal" but MUST wait to be asked which allows this situation to be setup.

I know this is getting stupid but others are now getting personal on what I think is a perfectly valid question.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by tibear

If this isn't an appeal what you prefer it be called?

As well, looking at OBR it states: in 9.02:
Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail.

The rulebook clearly states that an "insert alternative to appeal" can only take place when the PU calls a ball and when ASKED to "insert alternative to appeal". Thus, by the stricktist sense of the rulebook the PU doesn't have the right to "insert alternative to appeal" to the BU until he is asked to avoid this whole situation. The PU cannot initiate the "insert alternative to appeal" but MUST wait to be asked which allows this situation to be setup.

I know this is getting stupid but others are now getting personal on what I think is a perfectly valid question.

Whoa there Slick, I was quoting what UMP25 said. I wasn't getting personal. Slow down. I have always called it an appeal as well. I was pointing out my frustration with all the so-called "errors" that keep making there way back into the book every year. I am pushing for a major re-write of the OBR book. I volunteer to do it if nobody else wants to. Just so I can quit hearing about, "oh, that's one of the 230+ errors in the rules, and we interpret it blah, blah, blah..."

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by tibear

If this isn't an appeal what you prefer it be called?

Help on a half-swing. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Cub42

In the 2 man system, unless BU is in A, and check is on a right handed batter, and unless you were blocked by the catcher, that is a very tough call to make from the inside. That being said, you want your partner to give you what he has. It is the runner's responsibility to know the game situation at all times. The question seems to be how the catcher handled this. It seems to me that he tug the runner first, then asked for an appeal, your partner had enough time to realize what was going on, and by calling a swing was going to create a major s--thouse. These situations call for using your game mgt. skills. It's not what was right or wrong call here, it comes down to how it was handled, and you both come out of this looking bad.

Another myth kept alive. It's no harder for me to rule on a swing/no-swing from the middle than anywhere else.

[Tim C]

What Rich said!

Plus if an umpire . . . ya'll know the rest of this refrain.

Regards,

[Kaliix]

While it may not be an appeal under the summarily listed appeals in the JEA, or by the strictest of definitions, umpires as well as most others associated with the game have been calling it an appeal for so long that it might as well be.

Getting them to stop now would be like trying to those in baseball to stop calling them RBI's. It's a freaking RBI, no " 's ". Runs Batted Ins just makes no sense.

[JRutledge]

One of the big problems of this web site or the internet is we have so much mental masturbation over a simple issue. If you are working a game and an appeal is likely, ask for help immediately. If you ask for help immediately you will not have to worry about the "what ifs" that might be as a result.

Peace

[jkumpire]

JR is right here.

Because there is one other thing about the play everyone is missing, players and coaches who are at least half awake are not stupid about things like this.

If it is a close check F2 will go immediately for an appeal. He won't wait around, since if he does it makes it pretty clear to everyone he thinks it was a check, and BU will almost certainly not overrule it.

If it is a close check, then both the offense and defense will know there is an appeal coming, and nothing is going to happen until the check is made.

Yes, if you hear a bench squawking in a close game go before you asre asked. But please tell me how many times this situation has happened in a game you have done (0), and how many times has a catcher waited 10+ seconds before he asks for an appeal (0)? And how many times is a BU going to overrule a PU in this situation and put a runner in such jepardy when the defense waits for two days before asking for help (0, if BU has a clue).

[David B]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

JR is right here.

Because there is one other thing about the play everyone is missing, players and coaches who are at least half awake are not stupid about things like this.

If it is a close check F2 will go immediately for an appeal. He won't wait around, since if he does it makes it pretty clear to everyone he thinks it was a check, and BU will almost certainly not overrule it.

If it is a close check, then both the offense and defense will know there is an appeal coming, and nothing is going to happen until the check is made.

Yes, if you hear a bench squawking in a close game go before you asre asked. But please tell me how many times this situation has happened in a game you have done (0), and how many times has a catcher waited 10+ seconds before he asks for an appeal (0)? And how many times is a BU going to overrule a PU in this situation and put a runner in such jepardy when the defense waits for two days before asking for help (0, if BU has a clue).

Couldn't have said it any better.

Good umpiring makes the game so much better for everyone.

Thanks
David

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by Kaliix

While it may not be an appeal under the summarily listed appeals in the JEA, or by the strictest of definitions, umpires as well as most others associated with the game have been calling it an appeal for so long that it might as well be.

Getting them to stop now would be like trying to those in baseball to stop calling them RBI's. It's a freaking RBI, no " 's ". Runs Batted Ins just makes no sense.

An improper analogy, because help on a half-swing is NOT an "appeal" no matter how one parses it; however, RBIs = RBI--it's just putting a letter unnecessarily onto an acronym.

Oh, and I love your excuse of "umpires have been calling it that way for...". Who gives a rat's patootie? They're as confused now as they were then. I know MANY umpires who never considered that an appeal. I was never taught it was, and I don't teach that it is.

BTW, most others associated with the game believe a tie goes to the runner. I guess we're supposed to call it that way then, huh?

[SAump]

Originally Posted by tibear

Situation: bases loaded and 1 out, count 3-2. Batter apparently pulls back a checkswing on the pitch and the PU awards base on balls.

As the runner from third is jogging from third the catcher casually walks 8 feet up the third base line and tags the runner as they pass, then turns to the plate umpire and wants to appeal the last pitch to the BU for possible strike three call.

Would you allow the appeal and subsequent double play??

This was brought up on another site and I indicated that I wouldn't allow the appeal because there had been too long a delay between the pitch and the appeal. As well, the tag of the R3 was not part of the original play(pitched ball) and I would interpret that as another "play" had taken place and the defence had lost it right to appeal.

How long should the runners remain on their TOP base before ensuring their advance is really without jeopardy of being tagged out as a result of a checkswing appeal??

Comments??

Who says "take your base" after ball four? If I chose to allow the appeal or the subsequent DP, then I would suggest that "take your base" may become an approved verbal mechanic. Until then, I would not allow the appeal, nor the subsequent DP. Besides, it is a live base-on-balls award. The defense by rule is not allowed to register an out on a runner forced to advance as a result of the walk until such an award is completed.

[UMP25]

When I train umpires, I cringe when I hear a guy working the stick say, "Take your base." I usually yell out, "What base should he take and what should he do with it when he takes it? How long can he keep it? Does he have to give it back?" or something like that.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by SAump

. Besides, it is a live base-on-balls award. The defense by rule is not allowed to register an out until such an award is completed.

Huh? What rule is this?