Balk? Coming to Set...

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by LMan

Not unless you are saying F1 can't move the ball from the glove to his hand and back (off the rubber) without it being called a pitching motion.

You're conveniently avoiding the question.
It's a yes or no answer
pick one.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

You're conveniently avoiding the question.
It's a yes or no answer
pick one.

It's never that easy.


The proscription for an illegal quick-pitch requires a pitch to be thrown. That isn't the case here.

F1 cannot take signs off the rubber. The OP says nothing about taking signs, he says he comes set. So, that's out.

You appear to argue that the action of stepping on the rubber and coming set in one act, by itself constitutes 'simulating a pitching motion' and is balkable. This is where we disagree. If coming set were the start of the pitching motion, that is where the rules would state the time of pitch begins. It does not.

The rules DO state that F1 must have his hands separated when assuming the set....now here I think we very probably have a violation, as F1's hands probably join as he touches the rubber. The penalty is 'dont do that' in OBR.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by LMan

It's never that easy.


The proscription for an illegal quick-pitch requires a pitch to be thrown. That isn't the case here.

F1 cannot take signs off the rubber. The OP says nothing about taking signs, he says he comes set. So, that's out.

You appear to argue that the action of stepping on the rubber and coming set in one act, by itself constitutes 'simulating a pitching motion' and is balkable. This is where we disagree. If coming set were the start of the pitching motion, that is where the rules would state the time of pitch begins. It does not.

The rules DO state that F1 must have his hands separated when assuming the set....now here I think we very probably have a violation, as F1's hands probably join as he touches the rubber. The penalty is 'dont do that' in OBR.

I'm saying you cannot simulate a stretch while off the rubber, nor can you simulate being set while off the rubber. Penalty for both is a balk (with runners on)
agree or disagree?

[shickenbottom]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

I'm saying you cannot simulate a stretch while off the rubber, nor can you simulate being set while off the rubber. Penalty for both is a balk (with runners on) agree or disagree?

DM - Just reading this thread and clearly your missing something:

1st: An OOO is an Overly Officious Official - think of Deputy Barny Fife.

2nd: Please read Rule 8 of OBR. I can copy and post it here if you need, I can also copy the J/R interps of what a balk is and what are legal pitching positions.

3rd: It is not illegal to sumulate the stretch while off the rubber. If it is illegal, please post the rule reference. By the way, the stretch is not a legal pitching position. It is only a prepatory postion prior to comming Set (Legal Pitchin Position). Generally, this is accepted that the pitcher is in contact, but he doesn't have to be.

4th: It is not illegal to simulate the set postion from off the rubber. If it is illegal, please post the rule reference. 8.05g specifically states that it is illegal make any motion naturally associated with the pitch from off the rubber. Simulating a Set postion is not a pitch. The time of the pitch begins when the pitcher begins his motion.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by shickenbottom

4th: It is not illegal to simulate the set postion from off the rubber. If it is illegal, please post the rule reference. 8.05g specifically states that it is illegal make any motion naturally associated with the pitch from off the rubber. Simulating a Set postion is not a pitch. The time of the pitch begins when the pitcher begins his motion.

If you are simulating a set position from off the rubber how do unsimulate?
You can't step off the rubber and then break your hands, you're already off the rubber, you can't legally make a pitch. So as soon as you break your hands you've started the pitching motion and balked.

If a pitcher is in the set position and moves his pivot foot forward off the rubber with no other movements, do you have a balk, even if his hands haven't broke?
If so, then why is it different if a pitcher is straddling the rubber, simulating the set position and then moves his pivot foot to the rubber?

You can't be off the rubber and fake a stretch and set. It's deceptive and a balk. I think 8.05g includes preliminary pitching motions as well.

[shickenbottom]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

If you are simulating a set position from off the rubber how do unsimulate?
You can't step off the rubber and then break your hands, you're already off the rubber, you can't legally make a pitch. So as soon as you break your hands you've started the pitching motion and balked.

If a pitcher is in the set position and moves his pivot foot forward off the rubber with no other movements, do you have a balk, even if his hands haven't broke?
If so, then why is it different if a pitcher is straddling the rubber, simulating the set position and then moves his pivot foot to the rubber?

You can't be off the rubber and fake a stretch and set. It's deceptive and a balk. I think 8.05g includes preliminary pitching motions as well.

If you are not engaged with the rubber and both hands are together infront of the body, then you break your hands, how can this be a balk. The pitcher has done nothing illegal, he wasn't in contact. To pick off a runner, the pitcher has to break his hands and step toward the base. So just breaking the hands is nothing. You have to combine multiple actions that commit the pitcher to pitch, break hands, lift free foot (to deliver pitch), pull arm back to get momentum going forward. The essence of 8.05g is that the pitcher can not simulate the motion of pitching from off the rubber.

There are many things in baseball that are deceptive, but they are not illegal and definately not balks. Baseball is a game of deception.

Take for example the following:

1) The hidden ball trick: So long as the pitcher is not on or astride the rubber, it's legal.

2) The fake throw to pick off a runner: Pitcher disengages rubber, fakes throw to 1st, runner dives, 1st baseman fakes runner by running off to get an "apparent" overthrow, runner takes off for 2nd, pitcher throws to 2nd and gets the runner - perfectly legal.

3) 2nd Baseman or Shortstop, slapping thier gloves behind the runner to distract him.

Back to the discussion, be sure to read the entire rule 8, not just the little tidbits. Get yourself the Jacksa/Roder manual and read up on balks, get the Jim Evans Balk Video and watch it over and over again until you know the rules and can recognize a balk when it occurs.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

I think 8.05g includes preliminary pitching motions as well.

Aye, there's the rub. I disagree, and don't think you can back up your assertion with rules or AOs. So ends my participation in this.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I'm late arriving here but after reading all this bickering I have arrived at this:

Don is right in that you can't straddle the rubber and bring your hands together pretending that you are coming set. That is a motion associated with a pitch, and is prohibited. Merely joining the hands together is not prohibited, but if you think the pitcher is trying to deceive the runner into believing that he is actually on the rubber, then it is a balk. But just transferring the ball in and out of the glove is nothing. And you can step on the rubber with hands together, but if you do, technically you are in the set position at that time, and you can only pitch, step off, or throw to a base.

However, this has nothing to do with the OP. The pitcher was straddling the rubber and was eyeballing R1. Nothing wrong with that. Then, he stepped on the rubber and started his motion all at once. Nothing wrong there, unless he is quick pitching the batter.