Balk? Coming to Set...

[cshs81]

R1. Pitcher is straddling the rubber while he's eyeing R1. At the same time he brings his foot to the rubber, he comes to the set position.

Balk or just odd-looking but legal?

[David B]

Originally Posted by cshs81

R1. Pitcher is straddling the rubber while he's eyeing R1. At the same time he brings his foot to the rubber, he comes to the set position.

Balk or just odd-looking but legal?

That's a balk.

He must first have his foot in contact with the rubber and then come to the set position.

Similiar to the player who comes to the set, and then separates his hands before stepping back of the rubber.

Thanks
David

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by David B

That's a balk.

He must first have his foot in contact with the rubber and then come to the set position.

Similiar to the player who comes to the set, and then separates his hands before stepping back of the rubber.

Thanks
David

In and of itself, this is not a balk.

If, however, you determined that he is doing this to quick pitch a batter, that would be an illegal pitch and a balk under 8.05 (e)

If he is not quick pitching, tell him to take the rubber with his hands apart.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by GarthB

In and of itself, this is not a balk.

If, however, you determined that he is doing this to quick pitch a batter, that would be an illegal pitch and a balk under 8.05 (e)

If he is not quick pitching, tell him to take the rubber with his hands apart.

I'm confused.
If the OP is not in and of itself a balk(I disagree) and if he is NOT quick pitching, then why and what right do you have to say anything?

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

I'm confused.
If the OP is not in and of itself a balk(I disagree) and if he is NOT quick pitching, then why and what right do you have to say anything?

I don't have my books in this classroom but I believe it is 8.01 (b) that describes the mechanics of the set position. However, it lists no penalty for coming to the rubber set.

Traditionally, and as illustrated on Evan's pitching regulations video, this is treated as a "don't do that."

Nowhere in 8.05 is this discussed other than 8.05 (e) which discusses the possibility of setting up a quick pitch, which, if so ruled by the umpire, is a balk.

[scarolinablue]

Interesting sitch...I've had the same pitcher twice in Pony League now (Dixie rules)...he straddles the rubber, then when he places his foot on the rubber, he's already in the set position. However, there never has been an instance where he's tried to quick pitch...he probably takes 3 or more seconds before delivering the pitch or making a pickoff attempt, so that's why I've never seen the occasion to balk him - there's certainly nothing inherently illegal in what he does. He's only got a fastball, so that's probably why he doesn't really bother taking a signal. After the game, I've told the coaches they should really work on a standard stretch/set mechanic with this kid...I don't think his current mechanic will serve him very well in the future.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by scarolinablue

Interesting sitch...I've had the same pitcher twice in Pony League now (Dixie rules)...he straddles the rubber, then when he places his foot on the rubber, he's already in the set position. However, there never has been an instance where he's tried to quick pitch...he probably takes 3 or more seconds before delivering the pitch or making a pickoff attempt, so that's why I've never seen the occasion to balk him - there's certainly nothing inherently illegal in what he does. He's only got a fastball, so that's probably why he doesn't really bother taking a signal. After the game, I've told the coaches they should really work on a standard stretch/set mechanic with this kid...I don't think his current mechanic will serve him very well in the future.

This is clearly a balk.
You cannot simulate your pitching motion while off the rubber.
If he is in his set position when he moves his pivot foot to the rubber, then he must have been simulating the set position while off the rubber.
If he is bringing his hands to the set position while simultaneously moving his pivot foot to the rubber, as in OP, then that is the same thing.
This technique used by a sophisticated pitcher is clearly a deceptive move.

Whether or not you call it is another matter, but technically speaking there is no doubt it's a balk.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

This is clearly a balk.
You cannot simulate your pitching motion while off the rubber.
If he is in his set position when he moves his pivot foot to the rubber, then he must have been simulating the set position while off the rubber.
If he is bringing his hands to the set position while simultaneously moving his pivot foot to the rubber, as in OP, then that is the same thing.
This technique used by a sophisticated pitcher is clearly a deceptive move.

Whether or not you call it is another matter, but technically speaking there is no doubt it's a balk.

You are making an assumpition that he was simulating his "motion" off the rubber. There is no indication of that. If he did, that would be the reason for a balk, not for coming to the rubber set.

Coming to the rubber set is not a balk, at least not by rule.

Originally Posted by GarthB

In and of itself, this is not a balk.

If, however, you determined that he is doing this to quick pitch a batter, that would be an illegal pitch and a balk under 8.05 (e)

If he is not quick pitching, tell him to take the rubber with his hands apart.

Based on his user name I would think he is referring to FED.

FROM FED RULES
Rule 6 Pitching

SECTION 1 PITCHING

ART. 1... The pitcher shall pitch while facing the batter from either a windup position (Art. 2) or a set position (Art 3). The position of his feet determine whether he will pitch from the windup or the set position. He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate. The pitching regulations begin when he intentionally contacts the pitcher's plate. Turning the shoulders to check runners while in contact with the pitcher's plate in the set position is legal. Turning the shoulders after bringing the hands together during or after the stretch is a balk. He shall not make a quick-return pitch in an attempt to catch a batter off balance. The catcher shall have both feet in the catcher's box at the time of the pitch. If a pitcher is ambidextrous, the umpire shall require the pitcher to face a batter as either a left-handed pitcher or right-handed pitcher, but not both.

ART. 2... For the wind-up position, the pitcher is not restricted as to how he shall hold the ball. A pitcher assumes the windup position when his hands are: (a) together in front of the body; (b) both hands are at his side; (c) either hand is in front of the body and the other hand is at his side. The pitcher's non-pivot foot shall be in any position on or behind a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate. He is limited to not more than two pumps or rotations. After he starts his movement to pitch, he must continue the motion without interruption or alteration. With his feet in the wind-up position, the pitcher may only deliver a pitch or step backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot clearly behind the plate, he has the right to change to the set position or throw or feint to a base the same as that of any infielder. During delivery, he may lift his non-pivot foot in a step forward, a step sideways, or in a step backward and a step forward, but he shall not otherwise lift either foot.

ART. 3... For the set position, the pitcher shall have the ball in either his gloved hand or his pitching hand. His pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back. Before starting his delivery, he shall stand with his entire non-pivot foot in front of a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate and with his entire pivot foot in contact with or directly in front of the pitcher's plate. He shall go to the set position without interruption and in one continuous motion. He shall come to a complete and discernible stop (a change of direction is not considered an acceptable stop) with the ball in both hands in front of the body and his glove at or below his chin. Natural preliminary motions such as only one stretch may be made. During these preliminary motions and during the set position until a delivery motion occurs, the pitcher may turn on his pivot foot or lift it in a jump turn to step with the non-pivot foot toward a base while throwing or feinting as outlined in 6-2-4 and 2-28-5, or he may lift his pivot foot in a step backward off the pitcher's plate which must be in or partially within the 24-inch length of the pitcher's plate. In order to change to the wind-up position, he must first step clearly backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot on the ground clearly behind the plate, he then has the right to throw or feint to a base the same as that of any other infielder.

PENALTY (ART. 1, 2, 3): The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk. In both situations, the umpire signals dead ball.

Based on 6-1-3 I would suggest action is a balk. Stretch motion is preliminary motion before delivery motion. Rule clearly suggests preliminary motion STARTS with foot on rubber.

Penalty for violations of 6-1-1 thru 6-1-3 are BALK with runners.

[David B]

Originally Posted by GarthB

In and of itself, this is not a balk.

If, however, you determined that he is doing this to quick pitch a batter, that would be an illegal pitch and a balk under 8.05 (e)

If he is not quick pitching, tell him to take the rubber with his hands apart.

I'm assuming you're talking OBR. I was speaking of FED and it is a balk. (technical balk as it is said)

In OBR, this is under the quick pitch rules, so I would do a "don't do that"

If he continues you could call it a quick pitch and penalize.

Thanks
David

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by David B

I'm assuming you're talking OBR. I was speaking of FED and it is a balk. (technical balk as it is said)


Thanks
David

Show me where:

ART. 3

For the set position, the pitcher shall have the ball in either his gloved hand or his pitching hand. His pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back. Before starting his delivery, he shall stand with his entire non-pivot foot in front of a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate and with his entire pivot foot in contact with or directly in front of the pitcher's plate. He shall go to the set position without interruption and in one continuous motion. He shall come to a complete and discernible stop (a change of direction is not considered an acceptable stop) with the ball in both hands in front of the body and his glove at or below his chin. Natural preliminary motions such as only one stretch may be made. During these preliminary motions and during the set position until a delivery motion occurs, the pitcher may turn on his pivot foot or lift it in a jump turn to step with the non-pivot foot toward a base while throwing or feinting as outlined in 6-2-4 and 2-28-5, or he may lift his pivot foot in a step backward off the pitcher's plate which must be in or partially within the 24-inch length of the pitcher's plate. In order to change to the wind-up position, he must first step clearly backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot on the ground clearly behind the plate, he then has the right to throw or feint to a base the same as that of any other infielder.

PENALTY (ART. 1, 2, 3): The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk.

[David B]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Show me where:

ART. 3

For the set position, the pitcher shall have the ball in either his gloved hand or his pitching hand. His pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back. Before starting his delivery, he shall stand with his entire non-pivot foot in front of a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate and with his entire pivot foot in contact with or directly in front of the pitcher's plate. He shall go to the set position without interruption and in one continuous motion. He shall come to a complete and discernible stop (a change of direction is not considered an acceptable stop) with the ball in both hands in front of the body and his glove at or below his chin. Natural preliminary motions such as only one stretch may be made. During these preliminary motions and during the set position until a delivery motion occurs, the pitcher may turn on his pivot foot or lift it in a jump turn to step with the non-pivot foot toward a base while throwing or feinting as outlined in 6-2-4 and 2-28-5, or he may lift his pivot foot in a step backward off the pitcher's plate which must be in or partially within the 24-inch length of the pitcher's plate. In order to change to the wind-up position, he must first step clearly backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot on the ground clearly behind the plate, he then has the right to throw or feint to a base the same as that of any other infielder.

PENALTY (ART. 1, 2, 3): The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk.

Okay, I'm confused. There is R1, and F1 has a technical balk.

It might be an illegal pitch certainly, but the penalty with a runner on is a balk, right?

Or did I miss something?

Thanks
DAvid

[Tim C]

OOOs would most assuredly call this a balk.

Regards,

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by Tim C

OOOs would most assuredly call this a balk.

Regards,

Garth isn't the only one not reading clearly.
See post #8

I'm simply arguing the technicality of this being a balk. I specifically left the enforcement issue alone. So if you have any ability to read between the lines you would have realized I was not advocating enforcement.

Just so your name calling doesn't go for naught, what exactly does OOO stand for?

Originally Posted by cshs81

R1. Pitcher is straddling the rubber while he's eyeing R1. At the same time he brings his foot to the rubber, he comes to the set position.

Balk or just odd-looking but legal?

Just so we're all clear - what level are we talking about.
In addition there seems to be some confusion about EXACTLY what happened. Let me describe in detail what my take is on the situation, you correct me if my take is wrong.

1. Pitcher is straddling rubber and his hands are NOT TOGETHER.
2. As he is eyeing R1 - two things are happening AT THE SAME TIME. a) He is moving his foot to the rubber and b) BOTH his hands are moving to come together to the SET POSITION, as he would IF HE WAS DOING HIS STRETCH.

By FED, the stretch is a preliminary motion associated with coming to the SET POSITION. The wording IMPLIES, not states, that stretch is completed with his foot on the rubber since any actions during this time are referred to as with his foot on the rubber.

That being the case - the stretch is part of natural motions associated with coming to SET POSITION and delivering the ball. Penalty for violation of these rules is a BALK with runners.

Whether you call it or not - it's up to you. Some do, some don't, some just instruct. I'm not going to pass judgment on anyone either way. I warn about it then call it, so that they learn. Once they get nailed for it, they won't do it again, which is the entire point - get them to do it right.

As far as OBR is concerned - has anyone EVER seen a MLB pitcher do his stretch while moving his foot to the rubber at the same time. I'm going on 51 and have never seen it at any level above soph HS.

For those who don't want to go back to my earlier post and re-read the FED rules -here they are again, cut and pasted from the book.


Rule 6 Pitching

SECTION 1 PITCHING

ART. 1... The pitcher shall pitch while facing the batter from either a windup position (Art. 2) or a set position (Art 3). The position of his feet determine whether he will pitch from the windup or the set position. He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate. The pitching regulations begin when he intentionally contacts the pitcher's plate. Turning the shoulders to check runners while in contact with the pitcher's plate in the set position is legal. Turning the shoulders after bringing the hands together during or after the stretch is a balk. He shall not make a quick-return pitch in an attempt to catch a batter off balance. The catcher shall have both feet in the catcher's box at the time of the pitch. If a pitcher is ambidextrous, the umpire shall require the pitcher to face a batter as either a left-handed pitcher or right-handed pitcher, but not both.

ART. 2... For the wind-up position, the pitcher is not restricted as to how he shall hold the ball. A pitcher assumes the windup position when his hands are: (a) together in front of the body; (b) both hands are at his side; (c) either hand is in front of the body and the other hand is at his side. The pitcher's non-pivot foot shall be in any position on or behind a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate. He is limited to not more than two pumps or rotations. After he starts his movement to pitch, he must continue the motion without interruption or alteration. With his feet in the wind-up position, the pitcher may only deliver a pitch or step backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot clearly behind the plate, he has the right to change to the set position or throw or feint to a base the same as that of any infielder. During delivery, he may lift his non-pivot foot in a step forward, a step sideways, or in a step backward and a step forward, but he shall not otherwise lift either foot.

ART. 3... For the set position, the pitcher shall have the ball in either his gloved hand or his pitching hand. His pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back. Before starting his delivery, he shall stand with his entire non-pivot foot in front of a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate and with his entire pivot foot in contact with or directly in front of the pitcher's plate. He shall go to the set position without interruption and in one continuous motion. He shall come to a complete and discernible stop (a change of direction is not considered an acceptable stop) with the ball in both hands in front of the body and his glove at or below his chin. Natural preliminary motions such as only one stretch may be made. During these preliminary motions and during the set position until a delivery motion occurs, the pitcher may turn on his pivot foot or lift it in a jump turn to step with the non-pivot foot toward a base while throwing or feinting as outlined in 6-2-4 and 2-28-5, or he may lift his pivot foot in a step backward off the pitcher's plate which must be in or partially within the 24-inch length of the pitcher's plate. In order to change to the wind-up position, he must first step clearly backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot on the ground clearly behind the plate, he then has the right to throw or feint to a base the same as that of any other infielder.

PENALTY (ART. 1, 2, 3): The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk. In both situations, the umpire signals dead ball.