When does a slide begin?

[Don Mueller]

Interesting play and call(s) the other night.

R1, 1 out Fed varsity
Hit to gap in LCF, F7 boots it and R1 comes home. Relay from F6 is on line but low, F2 is in a weird position with both knees on ground and blocking the plate. Throw beats R1 by 5 or 6 steps. As F1 makes catch R1 begins a head first slide, Pete Rose style, he's horizontal and airborne when his left shoulder buries into F2s stomach. F2 topples backward, ball drops to ground, R1 scrambles to plate while F2 tries to catch his breath, BR heads to third.
PU kills the play, points to R1, yells "that's interference" and bangs him out.
HC comes in quickly from his box saying something to the effect 'that can't be interference he slid directly to the base, what else can he do?'
PU puts his hand up and says "hold on Jim let me tell you what I got"
Jim responds "I don't care what you got that can't be interference"
PU listens to Jim, cocks his head a bit and says "You're right" he then turns to R1 who is still standing near the plate and says "That's malicious contact, you're out and you're gone"
Jim is dumbfounded, as am I. I come in from C to make sure R1 gets off the field while Jim and PU have a few more words. Surprisingly Jim stayed in the game.
Unique tactic to agree with arguing coach and then enforce a stiffer call.
But for me it begs the question, when does the slide begin?
If you judge R1 to be in the act of a legal slide then interference or MC should not be called. If R1 is airborne he's not technicallly sliding yet.
What do you think?

[UmpJM]

Don M.,

While I cannot find anything definitive in the FED Rule or Casebook, this sounds to me like an illegal slide under FED rules.

My rationale is that the runner is "airborne" at the time he makes contact with the fielder who is in possession of the ball. On a "feet first" slide, the runner explicitly must no longer be airborne. I would apply the same principle in this sitch.

Of course, I could be wrong.

JM

[mcrowder]

This is not a slide at all, but rather a dive. I probably would have had MC at the outset, not after questions from the coach.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Horizontal, airborne, Pete Rose style, contacts F2 with a shoulder in the stomach, and you don't have Malicous Contact immediately???

This is a no brainer. In a FED game Out and out of the game. In Modified OBR (using the slide or avoid ruling), Safe and out of the game. In straight OBR, nothing but a G-thing, baby.

[Eastshire]

If you're in the air, you aren't sliding. MC all the way.

[shickenbottom]

Throw beat the runner by 5 or 6 steps. At the average distance of 3' to 5' per step (depending upon the running speed), this could be anywhere from 15 to 30'. So the runner was about a third of the way from home plate when the ball got there and then entered into a head first slide late, effectively barrelling into F2.

Malicious contact sounds right, however, not calling it when it occurred and after the discussion began with the offensive coach was poor.

As for when does the slide begin, its a difficult thing. In fed you've got the FPSR where any contact beyond the bag can be viewed as interference if it alters the play.

I'm not a physics professor, and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn last night however, work the time back assuming the player wants to stop on the bag. Example: Runner wants to stop on the bag, their weight (mass), running speed (energy), ground conditions friction for slowing (wet - muddy / dry), Sliding into a bag that is above the ground (will assist in stopping) or home plate that should be flush with the ground (no additional stopping provided), all factor into when the best time to slide is. It could be anywhere from 3 to 10 feet infront of the bag. On a Head first, you would probably want to start a little earlier so you don't jamb your hand or arm back into your shoulder potentially dislocating it or breaking an arm or wrist.

[DG]

MC should be instantly recognized and instantly punished. In this case, airborne shoulder to the catcher's stomach when he has two knees on the ground sounds like textbook example of MC.

[JRutledge]

Who says you cannot have MC and a slide? The two things are not mutually exclusive.

Peace

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Who says you cannot have MC and a slide? The two things are not mutually exclusive.

Peace

Did anyone say that? This instance, however, clearly was not a slide and therefore had no chance of not being MC.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Who says you cannot have MC and a slide? The two things are not mutually exclusive.

Peace

When would a legal slide result in MC?
I can't think of a situation where that could happen.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Did anyone say that? This instance, however, clearly was not a slide and therefore had no chance of not being MC.

My comment stands. When a runner starts a slide has nothing to do with if there is MC on a play. If the runner plowed into a fielder, when the slide starts is not going to change the call. You either have MC or you do not.

Peace

[shickenbottom]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

When would a legal slide result in MC?
I can't think of a situation where that could happen.

Think MC after the fact. Example, R3 comming home after a wild pitch, F1 comes in, R3 slides and is safe. F1 finally gets the ball beyond HP from F2, and then runner comes up and intentially shoves the pitcher in the back. Haven't seen it yet, but I can imagine it from some players with really bad attitudes.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by shickenbottom

Malicious contact sounds right, however, not calling it when it occurred and after the discussion began with the offensive coach was poor.

.

I asked my P after the game why he didn't call MC right away. He said his first instinct was to keep the kid in the game because he didn't think R1 intended to hit F2. According to my P F2 leaned more into the base line after R1 committed to slide. He was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. He changed his mind when the HC complained and didn't give him the chance to explain he was saving R1 from ejection.

Not saying it was right, just tellin ya what my Ps explanation was.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

When would a legal slide result in MC?
I can't think of a situation where that could happen.

If you have not fit all the requirements of a slide (at the moment of contact), it is kind of hard to have a legal slide at this point do you think?

Peace

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

My comment stands. When a runner starts a slide has nothing to do with if there is MC on a play. If the runner plowed into a fielder, when the slide starts is not going to change the call. You either have MC or you do not.

Peace

Take a foot first slide into a home plate that is completely blocked by a catcher. In a) the runner starts a slide early enough that he is completely on the ground before contacting the catcher and in b) the slide is started late enough that the runner contacts the catcher while still completely in the air, cleats first.

One of these is MC and one is a legal slide and it is entirely due to when the slide started.