Foul ball, or not?

[Daryl H. Long]

Mcrowder: If you can make a decision without having all the necessary information then more power to you. ( I corrected you in another sitch on this forum and you were man enough to admit your mistake and for that you are to be commended)

The OPer is new, and did not include all necessary info. Things like where did the ball originally hit foul ground...between home and third or beyond third. Or maybe the player the ball hit was standing in fair ground but the ball hit his hand while over foul territory. We all know location of the ball is what counts and not where the player is located...but we shouldn't ask for clarification as it is just a red herring and could confuse the poster. Etc. More than ONE clarification was needed and not as you suggested.

Many of us have been tring to walk him through it to get details and at the same time offer guidelines.

SA ump offered some excellent guidelines and from them we can determine fair/foul no matter who it hits.

When I mentioned the poster did not say whether the player hit was a runner or defensive player it was only to add another element which the original poster omitted.

If the OPer was confused on a simple concept of whether fair/foul then who it hits IS very pertinent and not a red herring as you suggest. On the contrary it is a common occurrence for the runner to be hit and needed to be mentioned so that when it happens bvilleeer will not call the ball fair and let play continue. He will know that (1) the ball was fair, and (2) the declare ball dead for hitting the runner.

We all have tried to educate bvilleeer to include all necessary information and show differing results (not just fair or foul) this simple act could cause.

[gotblue?]

Originally Posted by Bulldog

Home plate side of third base? Maybe you need to start over again. Think it through its not that hard.

I am nearly certain that, by stating "home plate side of third base", he means "short of third base", as contrasted with "past the third base bag".

But I don't think that the OP yet grasps what you guys are alluding to about not being specific enough as to where the fielder amd ball are when the fielder touches the ball. OP, if a fielder has his feet on the ground in fair territory, but reaches over the foul line and touches the ball (the BALL) over foul territory, the umpire needs to call the play (fair or foul) based on where the BALL is when touched.

Does this aid in clarifying where this thread should be headed?

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by bvilleeer

Guys thanks for the replies. Let me start over. The ball hits foul half way down the third base line. Bounces and hits third baseman, who is in fair territory, on home plate side of 3b. Then it hits the ground in foul again.

(I have been having problems with my computer tonight. It keeps logging me off and I lose my post.)

I was replying to bvilleeer that the above still needs an important element.

LOCATION. LOCATION. LOCATION. Was the ball over fair or foul territory when it hit the player? While my replies were lost I see that both gotblue? and bossman72 have also sensed the same.

We want bvilleeer to understand a common scenario is both of third baseman's feet could be in fair territory with his arm outstretched when the ball hits his mitt. If the ball is over fair territory when it his mitt then fair ball. If the ball is still on foul side of line and hits mitt it is a foul ball even though both feet are in fair territory.

Telling us it hit the third baseman who is in fair territory omits the most important detail. Was the ball over fair territory when it hit him.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Bulldog

Home plate side of third base? Maybe you need to start over again. Think it through its not that hard.

You really don't understand the home plate side of third base? Come on now.

[SanDiegoSteve]

One last time (hopefully). . .

When a ball is hit between home and third, or home and first the following applies:

If the ball is over fair territory when it hits any player, it is a fair ball.

If the ball is over foul territory when it hits any player, it is a foul ball.

It does not matter whether it started out fair or foul, or where the fielder is standing, it is only the location of the ball when it hits the player that matters.

[Bulldog]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

You really don't understand the home plate side of third base? Come on now.

Steve I know you like to be presumptuous, but don’t get carried away.

Based just on bvilleer’s post can you tell me which principle we can use to determine fair/foul?

1. Ball Stopped
2. Ball Touched
3. Ball Bounding
4. Ball Landing

Probably touch, but like other have said, where was the ball when it hit the third baseman. We know the third baseman was in fair. Unless there is more to this play it really sounds pretty basic don’t you think? I’m done……

[lawump]

To the original poster:

I think, to summarize, in order to answer your question: We need to know where the ball was when it was touched by the (offensive or defensive) player.

Since the ball did not come to a stop (and since we'll assume that "home plate side of third base" means "between home and third") the key to answering your question is the location of the ball when it was touched. It does not matter where the player was located when it was touched. It only matters where the ball was when it was touched.

For instance, at umpire school, the instructors often ran a fair/foul drill. In that drill one instructor would through a high "pop-up" down the right field line and another instructor would catch it. We the students had to rule (1) fair/foul and (2) catch/no catch.

Now the instructors would try to do tricks. For instance, the catching instructor would intentionally put both of his feet in fair territory right up against the foul line, reach out with his left hand FULLY EXTENDED and make contact with the in-flight ball (over foul territory). In this drill, the instructors were trying to catch students who would rule "fair" (due to the fielder being in fair territory). The correct ruling is "FOUL" (because the ball was over foul territory when it was touched).

The same key applies in your scenario: where was the ball when it was touched?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

Mcrowder: If you can make a decision without having all the necessary information then more power to you. ( I corrected you in another sitch on this forum and you were man enough to admit your mistake and for that you are to be commended).

I still don't understand why it matters to you whether the player it hit was an offensive or a defensive player. No matter who it was, when it hit a player, our judgement of fair/foul would be made - if the ball was in fair territory when it hit the player (offensive or defensive), it would be a fair ball... if the ball was in foul territyro when it hit the player (offensive or defensive), it would be a foul ball.

The REST of the call may hinge on who this mystery player was (who turned out to be F5) ... but fair/foul does not, and as I said before, bringing in the question as to who this player was is a red herring that distracts from the actual question asked.