Tough call for me today

[DTQ_Blue]

I posted this on the softball board because it happened to me in a softball game today. I am curious what the call would be if this happened in a baseball game. I can imagine it happening with young kids.

Tournament game today. Runner on 3rd, 1 out, batter K's but pitch gets by catcher. Runner breaks for home, batter stays in box. Pitcher comes in to cover plate, batter still in box fails to clear the area around the plate as catcher throws to the pitcher. Runner somehow gets thru to the plate, throw from catcher not caught by pitcher and is rolling in infield. Batter still standing in the box.

How would you handle? It happened to me today.

[LMan]

You havent said if you judged that the batter interfered with the play - you just say the throw from F2 was not caught. Need more details.

I can say that it reads that the batter had plenty of time to clear the box for the play, so an INT call is imminent.

[UmpJM]

DTQ_Blue,

As described, this would likely result in the R3 being called out because of the interference of his recently retired teammate. HTBT to say for sure.

JM

[DTQ_Blue]

Yes, I ruled that the BR interfered (altered the pitcher's approach to the plate). Yes I ruled the runner out. Now what would you do with the batter, who is now a batter-runner because of the uncaught 3rd strike.

[jkumpire]

If this was a BB game I got the BR out.

When the ball went dead, the BR has not moved. Therefore she/he abandoned their attempt to get to 1B. Out, Out, Out. You can't place her on 1B. He is in a force play situation here. Out, out, out

You could also use the "god rule" in rule 10 to make this call, since we want to punish the offending team to the maximum extent of the law. In this case, who did wrong? The BR did, so out, out, out.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

If this was a BB game I got the BR out.

When the ball went dead, the BR has not moved. Therefore she/he abandoned their attempt to get to 1B. Out, Out, Out. You can't place her on 1B. He is in a force play situation here. Out, out, out

You could also use the "god rule" in rule 10 to make this call, since we want to punish the offending team to the maximum extent of the law. In this case, who did wrong? The BR did, so out, out, out.

How did you come up with abandonment? It can't be abandonment until after the batter-runner touches first base. You can't get two outs on this play, because there was no imminent double play possibilty. The BR is called out for interference, and the runner should be returned to his position at the TOP.

You also don't want to use the "god rule" to punish teams, or for almost any other reason.

[johnnyg08]

Where is the abandonement rule in OBR...I can't find it on MLB.com...where is the rule in FED? Rule book is out in the car...thanks guys

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

You have it backwards. Ball is dead at time of interference. There was a dropped strike three and one out. Runner is out for batter interference. Award the batter first base since defense wasn't attempting a play on batter.

The defense COULDN'T play on the batter. The batter interfered causing the ball to become dead. How can you reward someone for an illegal act?

Bob

[BigUmp56]

This cannot be batter's interference. He is now a BR. From the J/R.




Section I: Batter Interference

Interference by a batter occurs exclusively in relationship to the catcher or the catcher's throw and only when the batter does not become a batter-runner.


Here we have a batter-runner that's disregarded his attempt to reach his advance base safely. Again from the J/R.

Section II: Runner Interference

B. Thrown Ball

It is interference by a runner on a thrown ball only if such runner:

1. commits an intentional action to interfere that disregards his try to get to a base safely, and

2. such action hinders a fielder trying to throw or trying to tag.

When runner or batter-runner interference occurs, the ball is dead.

Section III

NOTE: Apart from being outside the 45-foot lane, a Batter-Runner can only interfere on a thrown ball if his action is intentional and hinders a fielder. Similarly, a strike three where a batter becomes a runner is treated as a thrown ball situation, and such Batter-Runner can only interfere subject to the dictates of Section II, Subsection B, of this chapter.


Section IV: Penalizing Runner and Batter-Runner; Interference and Placing Other Runners

A. Penalization

A runner who interferes is declared out unless, as a result of preceding action, he is already out, then the other runner being played against is declared out. If no other runner is being played against, "weak" interference applies; that is, the ball is dead and runners must remain at their last legally touched base.




So in this play the BR is out and all other runners are returned to their last legally touched base.




Tim.

[jkumpire]

I have a long day ahead, so I will have to brief....

1. In this case, the PU has ruled the runner out for Batter's interference at home plate, even though he is now a BR.

2. Then the ball becomes dead because of the Interference, right?

3. The BR did not move from the batters box, right?

Since we agree on all of these things, what has the BR done on this play?

A. He/She Struck Out.
B. Caused interference because they did not try to go to 1B as is their right on this play (dropped 3rd strike).

A Dead Ball does not allow the BR to advance, does it? No.

So while Abandonment may be the wrong word to use here, since it has a technical meaning in the Baseball rules, the BR gave himself/herself up when they stayed in the box interfereing with the play. If you follow J/R's logic here, then you have given the offense a huge advantage in the play, because they can interfere without penalty. Also, J/R assumes the BR will try to get on base, which this person is not doing.

How can you not call the BR out? The dead ball by definition does not allow her/him any chance to advance, and there is no reason why their rights were violated by the defense so they can be awarded 1st base.

I can't see how the batter can be anything but out on the play.

[bob jenkins]

Let's change the play slightly -- R3, squeeze play, ball bunted to F3. R3 falls down 1/2 way to the plate. BR sees this and interferes with F3's attempt to throw to the plate.

I have BR out, R3 returning. I don't see how the original play is different.

In FED, you might be able to get two outs because with BR still in the box, the defense could get R3 out and then get BR out.

[LMan]

I incline toward Tim here. Upon strike 3, batter is now a batter-runner, so he's out, return R3 to 3B. There's no 'time limit' on how long it takes the B/R to move toward 1B, so I can't see 'desertion' here.

If it were the same sitch except NOT strike 3, then its BI, batter remains at bat, R3 out.

[jkumpire]

Bob and friends,

I don't see how your situation is analagous to the play here. Maybe I'm just missing something here.

The BR has bunted the ball to someone, now we have a possible play on the batter, and it would be impossible to see how the BR would decide to stay int he box to interfere with F3 trying to make a play on R3. And in OBR, don't you still have the option of two outs on this play? (Note: I have not looked at OBR, I have a lot of FED left to umpire).

I have a hard time getting around the fact here that the batter is already out if he or she does not attempt to get to 1B, and the INF call kills any chance of her even trying to get to 1B. She is not awarded 1B on the INF, is she? Are you not letting the offense buy an out?

And further, the interference by the BR is on a play on R3, not the BR. The BR has committed both an out, and an infraction. S/he is out because s/he cannot get to 1B on a dead ball.

I am not settled on my view of the play, please help me to understand what I am missing here, if you disagree with me.

[LMan]

I cant address the bunting deal, because thats a struck ball, whereas here its a D3K swinging.

Cite the rule where the B/R is 'already out' if he does not immediately start running to 1B. Neither desertion nor abandonment apply here..he has not 'left the dirt circle'. TWP: if there were no runners, D3K, and the B/R stood there and the defense retrieved the ball but made no play - how long would you allow the B/R to stand there before calling him out for 'no attempt?' 10 seconds? 60 seconds? 5 minutes?

I just dont think you can say that because the B/R didnt instantly leave for 1B (or desert), that alone makes him out...its not supported by rule. Unless I'm wrong So, to me, at the time the INT occurred, the batter is now a B/R, who is still 'alive' (not out) for purposes of the play. By rule, its the same as if he was 1/2 up the baseline to 1B, and interfered with a throw to retire R3 at the plate. The fact that the B/R is still located in the box at the time of INT is irrelevant to his status as a batter-runner.

Yes, the INT is a dead ball, but the rule explicity states that the penalty is that the interferer is out (BR in this case) and the runner (R3) returned to TOI base. This 'cant get to 1B on a dead ball' is a chimera...he's already out for his interference, because when he struck at the pitch, he ceased to be a batter instantly. He's now a B/R, and different INT rules apply.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

I have a long day ahead, so I will have to brief....

1. In this case, the PU has ruled the runner out for Batter's interference at home plate, even though he is now a BR.

2. Then the ball becomes dead because of the Interference, right?

3. The BR did not move from the batters box, right?

Since we agree on all of these things, what has the BR done on this play?

A. He/She Struck Out.
B. Caused interference because they did not try to go to 1B as is their right on this play (dropped 3rd strike).

A Dead Ball does not allow the BR to advance, does it? No.

So while Abandonment may be the wrong word to use here, since it has a technical meaning in the Baseball rules, the BR gave himself/herself up when they stayed in the box interfering with the play. If you follow J/R's logic here, then you have given the offense a huge advantage in the play, because they can interfere without penalty. Also, J/R assumes the BR will try to get on base, which this person is not doing.

How can you not call the BR out? The dead ball by definition does not allow her/him any chance to advance, and there is no reason why their rights were violated by the defense so they can be awarded 1st base.

I can't see how the batter can be anything but out on the play.

We are saying the B-R is out. What we are saying is you have to return R3 to third base, per the rules. You keep calling him the batter. He ceased being a batter upon his third strike, which was uncaught, so he became a batter-runner. He is not out on strikes, he is only out because he interfered with the play. The proper call in this situation (if it is egregious) is to call the batter out for weak interference, and return the runner to the base he occupied at the Time Of The Pitch (not the TOI).

This way, the offense is punished by virtue of not scoring that RISP, and having one more out. After all, it was an uncaught third strike, and a passed ball. It's not like it was the offense's fault this occurred, it was the defenses mistake. To turn this around from your point of view, you could say "why are we punishing the offense for the defenses error?"

As has already been mentioned, there is no time limit for the B-R to run to first base. Let's just say for the hell of it that there was no interference. Then all the defense would have to do is tag the B-R, or throw it to first base for the put-out. He can stand at home plate as long as he wants if nobody plays on him. Eventually, a member of the defense will realize that he's not out yet.