Tough call for me today

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

I have a long day ahead, so I will have to brief....

1. In this case, the PU has ruled the runner out for Batter's interference at home plate, even though he is now a BR.

2. Then the ball becomes dead because of the Interference, right?

3. The BR did not move from the batters box, right?

Since we agree on all of these things, what has the BR done on this play?

A. He/She Struck Out.
B. Caused interference because they did not try to go to 1B as is their right on this play (dropped 3rd strike).

A Dead Ball does not allow the BR to advance, does it? No.

So while Abandonment may be the wrong word to use here, since it has a technical meaning in the Baseball rules, the BR gave himself/herself up when they stayed in the box interfering with the play. If you follow J/R's logic here, then you have given the offense a huge advantage in the play, because they can interfere without penalty. Also, J/R assumes the BR will try to get on base, which this person is not doing.

How can you not call the BR out? The dead ball by definition does not allow her/him any chance to advance, and there is no reason why their rights were violated by the defense so they can be awarded 1st base.

I can't see how the batter can be anything but out on the play.

We are saying the B-R is out. What we are saying is you have to return R3 to third base, per the rules. You keep calling him the batter. He ceased being a batter upon his third strike, which was uncaught, so he became a batter-runner. He is not out on strikes, he is only out because he interfered with the play. The proper call in this situation (if it is egregious) is to call the batter out for weak interference, and return the runner to the base he occupied at the Time Of The Pitch (not the TOI).

This way, the offense is punished by virtue of not scoring that RISP, and having one more out. After all, it was an uncaught third strike, and a passed ball. It's not like it was the offense's fault this occurred, it was the defenses mistake. To turn this around from your point of view, you could say "why are we punishing the offense for the defenses error?"

As has already been mentioned, there is no time limit for the B-R to run to first base. Let's just say for the hell of it that there was no interference. Then all the defense would have to do is tag the B-R, or throw it to first base for the put-out. He can stand at home plate as long as he wants if nobody plays on him. Eventually, a member of the defense will realize that he's not out yet.

[jkumpire]

I appreciate the reply Steve.....

But, the BR interfered with a play that caused the ball to become dead. Because the ball is dead he can't go to 1B. So how is he not out? He caused the INF, 2 are not out, so R3 is by rule out on the INF right?

If you don't call it this way, then you give the offense an extra out. There is no situation in the rule book that matches it, since everyone assumes the BR is trying to do something to not be out ont he play. In this play, the BR is giving herself up to try and help the runner score.

I can grasp what you are saying, I just think your applying the rules the wrong way.

[BigUmp56]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. The ball becoming dead on the interference is irrelevant. The only way you can get two outs on an interference call is if in your judgment a runner or batter-runner interfered with the obvious intent to break up a double play. We don't award the batter-runner first base here, and since only one out can be called it has to be him. Now, an argument could be made for two outs had the batter-runner been tagged out prior to interfering with the play on R3. He would no longer be a batter-runner, he would become a recently retired teamate.


Tim.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Because the ball is dead he can't go to 1B.

Reference, please. BRs can go to first when the ball is dead. None of those situations are relevant to this play, though.

So how is he not out? He caused the INF

Right, and, in general, whoever causes the interference is out.

, 2 are not out, so R3 is by rule out on the INF right?

Not correct. Reference, please. Be sure it uses the phrase "batter runner" and not just "batter."

[Gmoore]

Bob,
7-4-5
Penalty: When there are two out,the batter is out.When there are not two outs and the runner is advancing to hme plate,If the runner is tagged out,the ball remains alive and interference is ingored.Otherwise,the ball is dead and the runner called out...........

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Gmoore

Bob,
7-4-5
Penalty: When there are two out,the batter is out.When there are not two outs and the runner is advancing to hme plate,If the runner is tagged out,the ball remains alive and interference is ingored.Otherwise,the ball is dead and the runner called out...........

I think you mean 7-3-5. That said, note that it refers to a batter. In the OP, the player who interfered is no longer a batter -- he is a runner (or a batter-runner).

Hmmm...

Now, having said that, 7.3.5I indicates that R3 can be out on this play (and if he is BR is awarded first).

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Reference, please. BRs can go to first when the ball is dead. None of those situations are relevant to this play, though.

Bob I equate this play to the following citation in OBR rule 4

PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to and touch home base in a reasonable time, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player and order the game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch first base, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player, and order the game resumed. If, before two are out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch first base, the run shall count, but the offending player shall be called out.

Here we have a batter turned runner refusing to go to first base in a reasonable amount of time, therefore, the BR is now declared out based upon OBR rule 4. In turn the BR does not vacate any space needed in order for the defense to make a play, so the runner on whom the defense was playing in this case R3 is also declared out.

In this play I have 2 outs. The batter turned runner had ample time to run to first but didn't and then compounded things by interfering with a play at home.

Pete Booth

[bob jenkins]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

Here we have a batter turned runner refusing to go to first base in a reasonable amount of time,

I don't read anywhere the the BR REFUSED to go to first. I think you're way off base trying to use this rule here. imo, the rule is only to avoid the BR saying something like, "Why shoudl I go to first? The game is over, and they can't put me out, so it's a waste of my multi-million $ contract."

[LMan]

[QUOTE=bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

I don't read anywhere the the BR REFUSED to go to first. I think you're way off base trying to use this rule here. imo, the rule is only to avoid the BR saying something like, "Why shoudl I go to first? The game is over, and they can't put me out, so it's a waste of my multi-million $ contract."

Uh, yeah. He 'refused' to go to 1B in the time it took R3 to run to the plate and get caught up in an INT call on the BR. What's that, a couple of seconds?

Sounds 'reasonable' to me.

[Daryl H. Long]

On every play there are multiple ways for a player to make an out. This sitch is no exception.

Options to get Batter-runner out: Throw ball to first and touch base, tag him, B-R could interfere.

Only one will happen and I must make my ruling based on the action.

If I deem the B-R (not batter as has been pointed out) has interfered then the ball is dead and the B-R is declared out and R3 is returned to last base touched at time of the interference.

If I do not declare the B-R interfered the the run scores and since the ball remains live that still leaves the B-R in jeopardy to be put out (uncaught third strike).

How? Tag him or throw ball to first. 8-4-1f. This is the easy way.

If the B-R still does not attempt to advance to first and the defense is also not trying to tag or throw to first I will say that the pitch was strike three. If still no action I am not waiting very long before will call time and declare B-R out. (Out because he accumulated three strikes and now that ball is dead he can not advance).

[DTQ_Blue]

In response to Big Guy, batter was RH, F1 approaches plate and her best position to take the throw from F2 would have been slightly to side of the plate to her right as she approached. Because the batter was directly in her path, the pitcher stays more to her left and approaches the plate head on. This disadvantaged F1 in positioning herself to attempt to make the tag.

One thing I would add in response to the discussion about intent on the part of the batter. As I noted up top, this actually happened in a softball game, but I wanted this board's take on the play because it could happen in a baseball game. It happened in a 10U tournament game. There were a lot of good teams at this event but the batting team was not one of them. They were far inferior in quality to every other team present. This play happened because the batter didn't have a clue; no intent whatsoever. But I still had to make a call.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

I appreciate the reply Steve.....

But, the BR interfered with a play that caused the ball to become dead. Because the ball is dead he can't go to 1B. So how is he not out? He caused the INF, 2 are not out, so R3 is by rule out on the INF right?

No! That's true if the batter were still the batter....he's not a batter any longer.

If you don't call it this way, then you give the offense an extra out. There is no situation in the rule book that matches it, since everyone assumes the BR is trying to do something to not be out ont he play. In this play, the BR is giving herself up to try and help the runner score.

I can grasp what you are saying, I just think your applying the rules the wrong way.

The INT itself caused the dead ball. Who said the BR wasn't out? The BR (interferer) is out for his violation, R3 returns to 3B. The BR is out because he interfered, not because he suddenly cannnot advance to 1B on a dead ball.

You seem terribly upset that R3 isn't also out on this play. I'm sorry about that, but the INT rules state that 'other runners return'. That's life, 'extra out' or not. Simply put, had this happened with 1 strike, the BR would remain at bat and R3 is out. With 2 strikes, its the other way around. Don't forget, the defense erred by not catching the 3d strike. So, who's being 'given' an extra out now?

*chants*
He's no longer a batter...he's no longer a batter.....there's no place like home.....there's no place like home.....


You keep saying 'apply the rules the wrong way,' but where are YOUR cites for calling out the BR for not immediately running to 1B on the D3K? Or why you keep calling her/him a batter (and trying to apply BI rules) when s/he is clearly now a BR? I'm not trying to be over-argumentative here, but this "it just don't seem right to me" stuff has no place in an otherwise-excellent situation and rules discussion (this is a GREAT topic to hash out ) We gotta bring the rules/cites to get it right, regardless of how we 'feel' about it.

[PeteBooth]

As has already been mentioned, there is no time limit for the B-R to run to first base.

yes there is a time limit. In the OBR rule book it is referred to as a reasonable time.

Check out rule 4.

Runners do not have ALL DAY to advance. They have what is termed a reasonable opportunity to advance.

Pete Booth