1st and 3rd

smoump · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 17, 2007, 02:44pm

Coach tells R1 to walk out into RF in order to try and get defense to act so he can score R3. Pitcher does not react to R1. Catcher returns ball back to pitcher. R1 is still standing in RF. What do you do? Anything?

Rich Ives · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 17, 2007, 02:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoump

Coach tells R1 to walk out into RF in order to try and get defense to act so he can score R3. Pitcher does not react to R1. Catcher returns ball back to pitcher. R1 is still standing in RF. What do you do? Anything?

Legal. Don't do anything.

johnnyg08 · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 17, 2007, 02:59pm

this is a classic trick play by the offense...the only thing the defense can really do is to call time...which would require the base runners to return to the base previously occupied. Ultimately, this is simply the R1's lead from 1st. Then the defense decides where to go w/ the play...I've never seen it in real life, just read about it quite a few times.

johnnyg08 · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 17, 2007, 03:08pm

dang...i've seen this in print before and now I can't find it...I'll bet somebody on here will have it...or be able to explain it if/when the other coach comes out to argue.

mcrowder · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 17, 2007, 03:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

dang...i've seen this in print before and now I can't find it...I'll bet somebody on here will have it...or be able to explain it if/when the other coach comes out to argue.

What are you looking for in print. No one is breaking any rules. PS - your suggestion to call time may not be valid - I would not allow a timeout with runners in play unless and until everything was entirely motionless.

The defense's best "play" here if they don't want to get the easy out in RF is to simply pitch. Very likely double play if the batter puts the ball in play with a runner way out there.

505 ump · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 17, 2007, 03:27pm

I believe that his play is called "skunk in the outfield"

johnnyg08 · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 17, 2007, 03:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcrowder

What are you looking for in print. No one is breaking any rules. PS - your suggestion to call time may not be valid - I would not allow a timeout with runners in play unless and until everything was entirely motionless.

The defense's best "play" here if they don't want to get the easy out in RF is to simply pitch. Very likely double play if the batter puts the ball in play with a runner way out there.

I understand all that you're saying and I also agree with you...my only question is how to explain this to a coach while using MLB rules...after all, we, as umpires, know it's okay...but what in the rules states that it is okay or is not okay. I read rule 7 with regard to the runner and the only thing I could find is as long as a play isn't being made on the runner that he can't violate the baseline rule...is that it? once a play is made on him the runner must head one way or another?

Again, I understand it...but when the politely coach comes out to discuss teh call after asking for, and being granted time...I think we owe him a better explanation than simply saying "that's how it is coach..."

Thank you for your previous post.

johnnyg08 · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 17, 2007, 03:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 505 ump

I believe that his play is called "skunk in the outfield"

That is what it's called. Thank you! One important thing here as an umpire...would be that if the defense is making a play on the runner (R1) in this situation, if the runner steps backward or not in a path toward 1st or 2nd...we may have an out for failure to maintain a direct path to a base...so in this case...when we're umpiring this type of a play...we have some things to watch for...granted this type of play might be considered to be a little bit "bush" we should know how to handle the play so we're not the ones looking like fools when a team tries to run this play.

#9 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 17, 2007, 03:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

I understand all that you're saying and I also agree with you...my only question is how to explain this to a coach while using MLB rules...after all, we, as umpires, know it's okay...but what in the rules states that it is okay or is not okay. I read rule 7 with regard to the runner and the only thing I could find is as long as a play isn't being made on the runner that he can't violate the baseline rule...is that it? once a play is made on him the runner must head one way or another?

Again, I understand it...but when the politely coach comes out to discuss teh call after asking for, and being granted time...I think we owe him a better explanation than simply saying "that's how it is coach..."

Thank you for your previous post.

If any of you belong to the FED discussion forum - there was a long thread about a month or so ago. As far as running outside the baseline, the thread goes on to discuss how a runner makes his own baseline as soon as someone tries to make a play. If it's still available I'll see if I can find some of the posts. It was rather lengthy.

johnnyg08 · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 17, 2007, 03:52pm

Yes, Big Guy...I agree with you and I don't think that there's a difference between that interpretation and the OBR...that sounds like a good way to explain this to a coach...I guess I'll wait and see what others think.

#11 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 17, 2007, 04:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Yes, Big Guy...I agree with you and I don't think that there's a difference between that interpretation and the OBR...that sounds like a good way to explain this to a coach...I guess I'll wait and see what others think.

I've done a cut and paste of the discussion thread on the subject. I've removed the names of the posters to protect both the innocent and the guilty!!! Enjoy
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The "Skunk Play" in our area is when R1 takes the extended leadoff into right field. The question came up that if he's taking that lead, when is his baseline to 2B or back to 1B established?

Is it when F1 steps off? When he throws to F4 or F3? When F1, F3, or F4 advance toward him as if to tag?
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Per Referee Magazine's article on the play, his lin eis established when a play on him begins. I would have to say that when F1 steps off is too soon--he may go to third, he may do nothing. But once he throws to F3 or F4, runs out towards the runner, or even fakes the throw forcing the runner to decide what to do, or the runner moves towards either first or second while any of this is happening, his path is established. Kind of like AtlBlue said about something else--not sure how to define the exact moment, but I'll know it when I see it.
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quote:
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The "Skunk Play" in our area is when R1 takes the extended leadoff into right field. The question came up that if he's taking that lead, when is his baseline to 2B or back to 1B established?

Is it when F1 steps off? When he throws to F4 or F3? When F1, F3, or F4 advance toward him as if to tag?
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As soon as R1 steps to whichever base he is moving he defines his baseline.
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As soon as R1 steps to whichever base he is moving he defines his baseline.

Not if no one is playing on him it's not.

The baseline is a straight line to the next base or the previous base when a play is being made on him. It is your judgment as to when a play is being made, within the definition of a play (an attempt to retire a runner).

The more R1 is making a joke (not a travesty!) out of the play, the more likely I am to consider any motion toward him a play, which gives him 3' on either side of a line at that point.

But until someone makes a play on him, he can sidestep, take a zig-zag path or turn somersaults, he is not under any restriction as regards to a basepath.

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As soon as R1 steps to whichever base he is moving he defines his baseline.

Not if no one is playing on him it's not.

The baseline is a straight line to the next base or the previous base when a play is being made on him. It is your judgment as to when a play is being made, within the definition of a play (an attempt to retire a runner).

The more R1 is making a joke (not a travesty!) out of the play, the more likely I am to consider any motion toward him a play, which gives him 3' on either side of a line at that point.

But until someone makes a play on him, he can sidestep, take a zig-zag path or turn somersaults, he is not under any restriction as regards to a basepath.
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Lets for argument sake say R1 is in right field and B2 comes up and slaps the ball to left field. Even though there may not be a play made directly on him, does not R1 still have to run directly to second base to reach the base or can he run in a zig zag pattern? Just curious
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Second part of the rule (8-4-2a) is cannot run outside the basepath "to avoid being tagged or to interfere with a fielder." Long as he does neither--zig-zag, somersault, do backflips. Though AtlBlue is right--the more he goofs around, the likelier I am to call him out if I have any doubt about a play being made.
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Many get too hung up on the three ft line. Think about the play that you see thousands of times over your career, a runner running the bases and he makes a big round. A runner can go as far or as close to a base as he runs. The SIO play is no different. Unless someone is trying to make a play then where he goes is irrelevant.

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does not R1 still have to run directly to second base to reach the base or can he run in a zig zag pattern?

He can run any pattern he wants UNTIL the defense makes a play to tag him. At THAT point, he is restricted to three feet on either side of a straight line from where he is to the next or previous base.

It's not an out to run out of the baseline. It's an out to run out of the baseline to avoid a tag. But judgment plays a huge part here. If a runner is running basically from 1B to 2B, I'm not getting out my tape measure to see if he went 3' out of the line. He would have to be AT LEAST 3' (and probably a bit more) for me to be SURE he was out of the basepath while avoiding a tag.

But if that same runner is in RF and being a jacka$$, I judge 3' MUCH more harshly, and an "attempt to tag" much more liberally.

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Thanks for the responses.

You have reinforced my thought that his baseline is determined at the point when a play is being made on him.

So, it seems to follow that if R1 continues to run (in a straight line) further into right field after the defense has initiated a play on him, he would be out because he has strayed further than 3 feet from the baseline as defined.
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Yes

TussAgee11 · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 17, 2007, 04:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

we may have an out for failure to maintain a direct path to a base...so in this case...when we're umpiring this type of a play...we have some things to watch for...

Might want to freshen up on that rule...

johnnyg08 · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 17, 2007, 04:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Might want to freshen up on that rule...

I've got the rule...thanks...what is wrong about what I've said...if the defense makes a play on him..the runner must maintain his line either to 1st or 2nd base. on the field i'll handle it perfectly. thanks. on the field we're not typing up an explanation to the coach who's standing a foot away waiting for an umpire to articulate an explanation. it's easy for you to sit on your computer and pick apart how people type of their responses...but if you can do it on the field...good for you...that's what makes us good. I continue to brush up everyday...just like any other umpire does w/ the rules...there's not one of you on here who doesn't consult/read the rule book time and time again. (well at least you should)...as said earlier on another thread...the purpose of these MB's is to talk about stuff here so you get it right on the field and can have the tact to explain your call to a coach should he make a reasonable request for an explanation. If we can't explain our calls to coaches who make a reasonable request we have an area marked for opportunity...that's all I'm saying...

mcrowder · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 17, 2007, 04:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

I understand all that you're saying and I also agree with you...my only question is how to explain this to a coach while using MLB rules...after all, we, as umpires, know it's okay...but what in the rules states that it is okay or is not okay. I read rule 7 with regard to the runner and the only thing I could find is as long as a play isn't being made on the runner that he can't violate the baseline rule...is that it? once a play is made on him the runner must head one way or another?

Again, I understand it...but when the politely coach comes out to discuss teh call after asking for, and being granted time...I think we owe him a better explanation than simply saying "that's how it is coach..."

Thank you for your previous post.

When the polite comes out to discuss it, you tell him the runner has done nothing illegal. There's not a section called, "Runner has done nothing illegal when he ... A) ... B)... etc." You tell him quite simply that there is no violation on this play.

And to answer your other post, yes, the runner must run directly toward one of the bases if a fielder is attempting a tag on this runner. If you want to play on the runner, have RF come in front of him, throw the ball to RF - most Baserunners will back away - OUT! RF can then throw home. Takes a talented RF though.

johnnyg08 · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 17, 2007, 04:49pm

sounds good...