PBUC and an overthrow/obstruction

[devilsadvocate]

From the PBUC Manual:
"if a throw is in flight at the moment the obstruction occurs (umpire calls "Time") and if the throw turns out to be wild and goes out of play, all runners will be awarded two bases. In such cases as this, the umpires have the responsibility of determining whether a throw is made before or after the obstruction, If the umpire judges that a throw was made after the obstruction, the obstructed runner will be awarded only one base from the base he last touched at the time of obstruction." The underlining was my emphasis. I guess the bold, blue, and green are my emphasis too (grin).

OK, this has me confused. So enlighten me. This section deals with Type A obstruction.

In the blue part, all runners are given two bases. This is the normal award for a thrown ball that goes out of play. So are we basically ignoring the obstruction and awarding the bases based on the overthrow?

In the green part, the obstructed runner only gets one base if the ball goes out of play, and I assume the other runners get two bases on the overthrow. That seems to be penalizing the obstructed runner. Or does it mean that he would get one base on the obstruction, then two bases on the overthrow?

Any help on this would be appreciated.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by devilsadvocate
From the PBUC Manual:
"if a throw is in flight at the moment the obstruction occurs (umpire calls "Time") and if the throw turns out to be wild and goes out of play, all runners will be awarded two bases. In such cases as this, the umpires have the responsibility of determining whether a throw is made before or after the obstruction, If the umpire judges that a throw was made after the obstruction, the obstructed runner will be awarded only one base from the base he last touched at the time of obstruction." The underlining was my emphasis. I guess the bold, blue, and green are my emphasis too (grin).

OK, this has me confused. So enlighten me. This section deals with Type A obstruction.

In the blue part, all runners are given two bases. This is the normal award for a thrown ball that goes out of play. So are we basically ignoring the obstruction and awarding the bases based on the overthrow?

In the green part, the obstructed runner only gets one base if the ball goes out of play, and I assume the other runners get two bases on the overthrow. That seems to be penalizing the obstructed runner. Or does it mean that he would get one base on the obstruction, then two bases on the overthrow?

Any help on this would be appreciated.

It's customary to cite the section of the book, not just the book itself: We say "OBR 8.05" or "JEA, 6:22" or "PBUC 4.22," which is the citation for your quotation.

Study OBR 7.06(a) CMT for the background you need to understand the PBUC manual. Remember, it's not written for amateurs or Devil's Advocates. It's a serious book for professional umpires. The publishers (PBUC) expect their "real" readers to know baseball and to know the situations as outlined in the rule book.

What this means is that the award is measured from the base the runner WOULD HAVE REACHED before the throw without the obstruction. BTW: This is an example of a ruling that appeared in the BRD (1993: Section 260.1) and THEN made it to the NAPBL manual (1994: 4.22).

Here's the paradigm:

Play 1: B1 hits in the gap and is obstructed as he heads for second. He was obstructed BEFORE the outfielder released the ball. Without the obstruction he would have been on second. [This is fun!] Ruling: Therefore, he is awarded home.

Play 2: B1 hits in the gap and is obstructed as he heads for second. He was obstructed AFTER the outfielder released the ball. He would not have been on second. Ruling: Therefore, he goes to third, receiving only ONE base on the overthrow (and one base on the Type a obstruction).

You could say he received two bases from the time of the throw. He still goes to third only. But phrasing it as they do allows an umpire to send an obstructed runner to home following a "two-base award" for an overthrow: "Coach, he had second if your guy hadn't got in his way. He gets two bases from the base occupied whenever an outfielder throws the ball to dead ball territory. Bubba, the batter-runner scores! My advice: Tell your first baseman to get out of the base path."

STEVE FREIX: What follows is opinion (grin): Putting a time frame ("before" and "after") is an attempt by PBUC to ensure consistency on those very rare occasions when this play might occur. A famous San Franscisco gadfly would argue that it's part of the "dumbing-down" of the umpire corps.

D.A.: Hey, I guess if you don't ask....

BTW: I believe -- I haven't fully checked my diaries -- it occurred just once during my career of 41 years, and that was the play at 7.06a CMT. My games proved the curse (?) of the well-prepared ump: For 35 years I knew exactly what to do for casebook plays. Like the third-base umpire in a four-man crew, I never had anything to do.

[Edited by Carl Childress on Dec 2nd, 2001 at 08:33 AM]

[devilsadvocate]

Carl,
What does "CMT" stand for?

And, I think that on the plays you described you got the rulings reversed on obstruction before/after the throw. Could you check to make sure they are right?

I've got a couple of questions about this, but first I need to make sure your examples are correct.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by devilsadvocate
Carl,
What does "CMT" stand for?

And, I think that on the plays you described you got the rulings reversed on obstruction before/after the throw. Could you check to make sure they are right?

I've got a couple of questions about this, but first I need to make sure your examples are correct.

CMT stands for "comment"; that material is not part of the rule but rather case book "discussion."

The point of the PBUC ruling to is insure that the obstruction is Type (a). That's why they are talking about the throw being "in flight" at the time of the obstruction. If the throw comes after the obstruction, then the ball would not have been killed: It is Type (b), which is the case in my Play 1, where the runner is awarded home.

Here's the ruling on which I based my plays:

Fitzpatrick explained that if the defense obstructs a runner and then throws the all away, the award for the overthrow will be measured from the base the runner would have made without the obstruction. (phone call to Scott Ehret, 1/7/93) BRD, 1993, p. 175.

The NCAA rule says:

When the ball is immediately dead on an obstruction, if a previously released defensive throw enters dead ball territory, the runners are to be award such bases on while throws as they would have been award had no obstruction occurred.

I do see ambiguity in the rulings now in the clear light of day. I will get that cleared up as well.

That's the beauty of obtaining rulings at this time of the year. The entire staff (227 minor league umpires) is meeting next week in Boston.

[Bfair]

As I see it, the difference in what is being discussed here deals with first determinng if the obstruction is Type A or Type B. That, in itself, determines whether you are allowed to consider the results of a throw made after the time of obstruction.

In Type A obstruction, the infraction occurs after or at the same time as a throw is being made on the runner. Therefore, the throw "is committed to" by the defense at the time of obstruction. It is part of the playing action. Other than that throw, nothing thereafter is considered part of playing action---including a "late", errant throw subsequently attempted. Since with Type A we are to kill the ball immediately, we are also now allowed to accept any result of the throw that would benefit the offense. Meaning, since the throw was made before or during the time of the obstruction, the umpire may include the result of the throw in his determination of the award. If the ball is in the air at time of obstruction and later is determined to be errant (goes to DBT or in play away from any fielders), the umpire may include that fact in his determination of the award---awarding MORE than the required one base per rule.

OTH, if a play is in progress on a Type A obstructed runner(perhaps a runner in a rundown), but the release of the throw is after the obstruction has occurred, then the result of the throw is irrelevant and not considered in any award, and the award is only the required one base.

Type B obstruction allows for the concept of a ball being thrown after the obstruction whereby that throw IS considered. Suppose BR is obstructed after he rounded 1B and while progressing to 2nd. You may only be protecting him to 2B. The ball is close to, but has not yet reached F8 who is fielding it in the left center field gap. BR is close to 2B when F8 makes his throw toward 3B to stop BR's further advancement. The throw is misplayed and enters the dugout.

Rather than awarding the BR 2 bases from his location at TOT, the umpire may consider the fact that BR would have been to 2nd base at TOT had it not been for the obstruction. Therefore, he may award 2 bases to BR (the award for throw going into DBT) based on where BR would have been had it not been for the obstruction---thereby sending BR to home on a ball entering DBT.

I note, however, that I could only see this happening on a Type B obstruction since it would be the only time a throw would be considered if made after the time of obstruction.

Just my opinion,

Freix

BTW, Eric, CMT stands for "comment"

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Bfair
As I see it, the difference in what is being discussed here deals with first determinng if the obstruction is Type A or Type B. That, in itself, determines whether you are allowed to consider the results of a throw made after the time of obstruction.

In Type A obstruction, the infraction occurs after or at the same time as a throw is being made on the runner. Therefore, the throw "is committed to" by the defense at the time of obstruction. It is part of the playing action. Other than that throw, nothing thereafter is considered part of playing action---including a "late", errant throw subsequently attempted. Since with Type A we are to kill the ball immediately, we are also now allowed to accept any result of the throw that would benefit the offense. Meaning, since the throw was made before or during the time of the obstruction, the umpire may include the result of the throw in his determination of the award. If the ball is in the air at time of obstruction and later is determined to be errant (goes to DBT or in play away from any fielders), the umpire may include that fact in his determination of the award---awarding MORE than the required one base per rule.

OTH, if a play is in progress on a Type A obstructed runner(perhaps a runner in a rundown), but the release of the throw is after the obstruction has occurred, then the result of the throw is irrelevant and not considered in any award, and the award is only the required one base.

Type B obstruction allows for the concept of a ball being thrown after the obstruction whereby that throw IS considered. Suppose BR is obstructed after he rounded 1B and while progressing to 2nd. You may only be protecting him to 2B. The ball is close to, but has not yet reached F8 who is fielding it in the left center field gap. BR is close to 2B when F8 makes his throw toward 3B to stop BR's further advancement. The throw is misplayed and enters the dugout.

Rather than awarding the BR 2 bases from his location at TOT, the umpire may consider the fact that BR would have been to 2nd base at TOT had it not been for the obstruction. Therefore, he may award 2 bases to BR (the award for throw going into DBT) based on where BR would have been had it not been for the obstruction---thereby sending BR to home on a ball entering DBT.

I note, however, that I could only see this happening on a Type B obstruction since it would be the only time a throw would be considered if made after the time of obstruction.Freix

Steve:

Yes.

[pob14]

Sweet Mother of Pearl, Steve and Carl agreed on something!

I'd post more, but I just saw a pig fly past my window.

And I don't even HAVE a window!