Tough game...couple of questions

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Good Question.
Here's the way I look at it.
One dead ball strike call or even one dead ball K in the life of a high school ball player means virtually nothing to that player an hour after the game is over. I can speak fairly confidently to this having played myself and also having 3 kids that have played HS ball. Although I don't ever remember this specific call being made on them, they certainly have felt they got the wrong end of some very egregious calls. Almost always the call is forgotten before dinner. However, the coach, if he has half a brain will remember the call, the point of the call and the person who made the call for a long time.
So that coach will never approach a plate I'm behind again without permission and the kid will forget the called strike before breakfast.

One quick clarification.
I definitely don't want to dead ball K a kid, so I'm certainly letting the coach know the possible consequences of his actions if I have 2 strikes on the batter, then the onus is on the coach.
I have never dead ball K'd anyone, but I have rung up a strike in this situation, the coach was stunned, he then turned around and went back to his box. I'm sure I got more milage out of that strike than I ever would have got out of an ejection.

I have a real simple question - where in FED does it say you can call a strike on a batter for conduct on the part of the coach? As long as the batter is in the batter's box and the batter has not committed an infraction, you as PU have NO authority to call a strike on the batter in this situation.

The only time an umpire may charge a batter with a strike other than a called strike or swinging strike/foul ball, is for delay of game on the part of the BATTER. See 2-27-1f, 7-2-1e, or 7-3-1 penalty.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

I have a real simple question - where in FED does it say you can call a strike on a batter for conduct on the part of the coach?.

Same place where it says a coach can come to the plate during live ball action to argue about my balls and strikes.

Originally Posted by BigGuy

As long as the batter is in the batter's box and the batter has not committed an infraction, you as PU have NO authority to call a strike on the batter in this situation..

I did it. So I got the authority from somewhere.
I think it's called assumed authority. Your speaking strictly to expressed authority.
And I agree that I overstepped my expressed authority, but it worked so well that given similar circumstances I'll do it again.

Originally Posted by BigGuy

The only time an umpire may charge a batter with a strike other than a called strike or swinging strike/foul ball, is for delay of game on the part of the BATTER. See 2-27-1f, 7-2-1e, or 7-3-1 penalty.

I know the rule. I'm not arguing. But it's a great way to disarm the coach and an easy sell.

[Durham]

Originally Posted by scarolinablue

Where I got into trouble, and the basis for question #1 is: Batter foul tips, I heard, but wasn't sure of, a possible catcher's interference . . . but should I have overturned this?

Question #2: Opinions?

Coach comes up and says, to the catcher, but of course directed at me "what did you see." Pipsqueak says "I saw a foul ball", coach says to me "how could you call that fair?" I explain that it bounced fair, crossed the base in fair territory, and that yes, it landed in foul territory, but that is irrelevant since it both bounced fair and crossed the base in fair territory. He blows up as he turns away and screams "how could that possibly be fair if it lands foul. Unbelievable!" Maybe I could have dumped him too.

Q1) If you think you kicked it, tell your partner what happened, and that you think you missed it and then say, "Are you ok with me changing this and getting it right?" The reason for asking this quetion is there is probably gonna be an argument, a big one. And your partner may have to deal with a little crap because you messed up and now you are fixing it. If he says it is ok, change it and get ready for war, if he says, let's stick with the call, then you looked like you were trying to get it right and he had nothing new or different to give you.

Q2) Ok, so we screwed up and kicked a pitch, fine lets move on. But now that we have moved on, let's not screw up a stich by letting a coach get away with something extra. Yes, you will listen more, but after your second warning, if he continued, throw him out, he just ran HIMSELF. Don't let one screw up turn into two.

Q3) Ask the coach if he called time to talk to his catcher or to you. If he wants a charged defensive timeout, then let him have it, if he wants to talk to you then let him, but don't let him do both. When he blows up as he did, warn him and then eject. If his actions are an obvious attempt to show you up and serve no other purpose, then just run him. You are there to work a game and not stand there and be target practice for the snipers and peanut galleries, and I would say that you just found the president of that peanut gallery.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by scarolinablue

I went from having my best game (IMO) of the season last night (4-2 1:40 7-inning game between two local HS powers and rivals) to my worst game of the season tonight (18-13 3:15 uglyfest between a good 4A school and a so-so prep school in a spring break tourney). I say it was my worst game of the season because I felt my strike zone tonight was a tad on the inconsistent side, mainly on the low strike. Probably had 6-8 pitches that I muffed...maybe that's not too bad in this length of game, but I hate missing that many, or even feeling like I did.

First of all I do not think it is unusual to miss from 10-15 pitches a game. Now when I say miss pitches, I mean calling a couple of pitches strikes that should be balls and some balls that should be strikes. Now that number can change based on the ability of the pitchers and how many close pitches batters are letting go by. It is a lot easier when batters are swinging at the ball and not giving you as many chances to call pitches. I would not beat yourself up about that part of the game. If you have a game with 31 runs scored, that is a lot of batters and probably a lot of different pitchers with different styles and abilities to watch. That is not easy for even the best umpires to deal with. So if all you felt is you missed 6-8 pitches, that is pretty damn good.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

First of all I do not think it is unusual to miss from 10-15 pitches a game. Now when I say miss pitches, I mean calling a couple of pitches strikes that should be balls and some balls that should be strikes. Now that number can change based on the ability of the pitchers and how many close pitches batters are letting go by. It is a lot easier when batters are swinging at the ball and not giving you as many chances to call pitches. I would not beat yourself up about that part of the game. If you have a game with 31 runs scored, that is a lot of batters and probably a lot of different pitchers with different styles and abilities to watch. That is not easy for even the best umpires to deal with. So if all you felt is you missed 6-8 pitches, that is pretty damn good.

Peace

I think that the plate umpire feeling he missed 10-15 pitches is a LOT.

[JRutledge]

What you think and what is reality are two different things. I know I probably miss pitches that I think I got right.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What you think and what is reality are two different things. I know I probably miss pitches that I think I got right.

Peace

If I think I got them right, in honest self-evaluation, well that's all that's important to me. I know when I've missed a pitch and I usually know whay I've missed it, too. 99% of the time it involves timing.

[lds7199]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Same place where it says a coach can come to the plate during live ball action to argue about my balls and strikes.



I did it. So I got the authority from somewhere.
I think it's called assumed authority. Your speaking strictly to expressed authority.
And I agree that I overstepped my expressed authority, but it worked so well that given similar circumstances I'll do it again.



I know the rule. I'm not arguing. But it's a great way to disarm the coach and an easy sell.

So, if we don't like the methods available in the rulebook, we should just make up our own penalties? Coaches coming to home plate to argue balls and strikes is covered in the rulebook. It is called an ejection. Instead, you choose to make up your own rule and penalize the batter for the coaches actions. Do you do the same for other situations that are covered in the rules?

[UmpJM]

lds7199,

Well said. Besides, I can't for the life of me understand why an umpire would serve up valid grounds for a protest on a silver platter to a coach who was acting like a di**head.

JM

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Good Question.
Here's the way I look at it.
One dead ball strike call or even one dead ball K in the life of a high school ball player means virtually nothing to that player an hour after the game is over. I can speak fairly confidently to this having played myself and also having 3 kids that have played HS ball. Although I don't ever remember this specific call being made on them, they certainly have felt they got the wrong end of some very egregious calls. Almost always the call is forgotten before dinner. However, the coach, if he has half a brain will remember the call, the point of the call and the person who made the call for a long time.
So that coach will never approach a plate I'm behind again without permission and the kid will forget the called strike before breakfast.

One quick clarification.
I definitely don't want to dead ball K a kid, so I'm certainly letting the coach know the possible consequences of his actions if I have 2 strikes on the batter, then the onus is on the coach.
I have never dead ball K'd anyone, but I have rung up a strike in this situation, the coach was stunned, he then turned around and went back to his box. I'm sure I got more milage out of that strike than I ever would have got out of an ejection.

Leave the cheating to the Rats. If you can't call an honest game, find another hobby.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Same place where it says a coach can come to the plate during live ball action to argue about my balls and strikes.

I did it. So I got the authority from somewhere. I think it's called assumed authority. Your speaking strictly to expressed authority. And I agree that I overstepped my expressed authority, but it worked so well that given similar circumstances I'll do it again. I know the rule. I'm not arguing. But it's a great way to disarm the coach and an easy sell.

Oh my god. Please stay the hell away from the ballfield in the future. There's no place for umpires with this attitude.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by lds7199

So, if we don't like the methods available in the rulebook, we should just make up our own penalties? Coaches coming to home plate to argue balls and strikes is covered in the rulebook. It is called an ejection. Instead, you choose to make up your own rule and penalize the batter for the coaches actions. Do you do the same for other situations that are covered in the rules?

I didn't make up a rule, I made up a penalty.

I have a serious question for you.
Fed rules
Home team at bat R1, R2 no outs

Ground ball to F5 forces out R2
R2 keeps jogging right past 3rd to dug out.
6 feet from dugout R2 takes off helmet while still jogging and 1 second later is in dug out helmet in hand.
You clearly see it.
Are you issuing a warning?
If you answer truthfully then the answer should be no, if you answer yes then I'm sure I can find a sitch to get my point accross.
I think you get my point.
If you answered no
You have just chosen to ignore a safety rule
Do you ignore other safety rules also. You obviously take it upon yourself to arbitrarily decide which rules are important enough to enforce.

If you choose not to penalize a rules infraction haven't you in essence changed the penalty?
We all draw lines within the rule book, it's just a matter of where.
In this case I chose to modify the penalty and got a much better long term result than an ejection would have got me.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Oh my god. Please stay the hell away from the ballfield in the future. There's no place for umpires with this attitude.

Please, don't give me your better than though attitude.
You ignore rules all the time
What's the difference?

[johnnyg08]

the pro umpires miss between 2 - 4 pitches on average per game...so for somebody to say 10-15 pitches missed at amateur levels...is probably fairly realistic...although missing 10 - 15 pitches per game does seem like a lot as I continue to type...oh well...get better each time out...

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

I didn't make up a rule, I made up a penalty.

I have a serious question for you.
Fed rules
Home team at bat R1, R2 no outs

Ground ball to F5 forces out R2
R2 keeps jogging right past 3rd to dug out.
6 feet from dugout R2 takes off helmet while still jogging and 1 second later is in dug out helmet in hand.
You clearly see it.
Are you issuing a warning?
If you answer truthfully then the answer should be no, if you answer yes then I'm sure I can find a sitch to get my point accross.
I think you get my point.
If you answered no
You have just chosen to ignore a safety rule
Do you ignore other safety rules also. You obviously take it upon yourself to arbitrarily decide which rules are important enough to enforce.

If you choose not to penalize a rules infraction haven't you in essence changed the penalty?
We all draw lines within the rule book, it's just a matter of where.
In this case I chose to modify the penalty and got a much better long term result than an ejection would have got me.

Not the same thing at all. Overlooking minor or inconsequential infractions is part of the game, sometimes written and sometimes not, but always consistent with the custom and practice of the umpires, and within the expectations of the game participants. Making up penalties as you are with your directed strike turns the game you're officiating from baseball into "Don-ball."

It appears you don't have a problem with that, but you should understand you're in a very lonely camp with that attitude.