Ejection

[mrm21711]

Hey Guys:

I wanted some feedback on a situation & ejection I had this afternoon.

Visiting team's head coach has a reputation in the area as a whiner. I completely blocked this out, but want to point out this is not some isolated problem with a solid coach.

Early in the game, there was some chirping on 2 pitches. One pitch myself & partner agreed I got correct, the other pitch my partner felt it could have been about 1/4 of an inch or so low. A pretty tight pitch. When he starts chipring from the bench, I give him a little bit of leash then give him a "thats enough." I left the mask on and everything, didnt provoke any confrontation. Bottom 6, 9-0 (I believe, visiting team is losing). Few close pitches dont go his way and comes out for a conference with his pitcher after that batter walked. I stay put on the opposite foul line, and after 80-90 seconds or so, its obvious hes baiting me to come out to the mound. Now Tee made a previous post about how in his area, plate umpires do not go to the mound, plain and simple. In our area, the opposite is true. So I head out there, and no surprise, hes waiting to "discuss" a bunch of close calls that didnt go his way. He mentions how "all these close calls are going the other team's way," "I want to make you a better umpire for the future," and "we need to be more fair." I warned him again saying we will not discuss balls/strikes, previous close calls, most importantly the crew's integrity, and that we were done. I turned around, and he followed. I warned him again, and as he kept going, I threw him out.

Any problems here (maybe besides going to the mound?) I figured hes gonna come at me no matter what.

*Edited the 80-90 seconds*

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by mrm21711

Hey Guys:

I wanted some feedback on a situation & ejection I had this afternoon.

Visiting team's head coach has a reputation in the area as a whiner. I completely blocked this out, but want to point out this is not some isolated problem with a solid coach.

Early in the game, there was some chirping on 2 pitches. One pitch myself & partner agreed I got correct, the other pitch my partner felt it could have been about 1/4 of an inch or so low. A pretty tight pitch. When he starts chipring from the bench, I give him a little bit of leash then give him a "thats enough." I left the mask on and everything, didnt provoke any confrontation. Bottom 6, 9-0 (I believe, visiting team is losing). Few close pitches dont go his way and comes out for a conference with his pitcher after that batter walked. I stay put on the opposite foul line, and after a few minutes or so, its obvious hes baiting me to come out to the mound. Now Tee made a previous post about how in his area, plate umpires do not go to the mound, plain and simple. In our area, the opposite is true. So I head out there, and no surprise, hes waiting to "discuss" a bunch of close calls that didnt go his way. He mentions how "all these close calls are going the other team's way," "I want to make you a better umpire for the future," and "we need to be more fair." I warned him again saying we will not discuss balls/strikes, previous close calls, most importantly the crew's integrity, and that we were done. I turned around, and he followed. I warned him again, and as he kept going, I threw him out.

Any problems here (maybe besides going to the mound?) I figured hes gonna come at me no matter what.

If you are serious about one of the pitches being "about 1/4 of an inch or so low" and that you let the visit go "a few minutes or so" before you went to the mound to break it up, then I fear for your perceptive abilities. If you're just using hyperbole for effect in both measurements, then no, I don't see any significant problem with your handling of the situation.

[mrm21711]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

If you are serious about one of the pitches being "about 1/4 of an inch or so low" and that you let the visit go "a few minutes or so" before you went to the mound to break it up, then I fear for your perceptive abilities. If you're just using hyperbole for effect in both measurements, then no, I don't see any significant problem with your handling of the situation.

Hard to tell exactly how long the conference went. I would say a legitimate 80-90 seconds. A few minutes is not accurate, I apologize. I headed out there when I realized he was just stalling, ect.

My partner made the 1/4 of an inch comment. I felt the pitch was right at the knees. I think his point was if it was low, it was very very close.

[canablue05]

As soon as he follows, done. No warning needed. You walked away, he didn't.

From his comments it might have been necessary for an earlier exit. He pretty much said you're incompetent. Especially after warning once already.

[mrm21711]

Originally Posted by canablue05

As soon as he follows, done. No warning needed. You walked away, he didn't.

From his comments it might have been necessary for an earlier exit. He pretty much said you're incompetent. Especially after warning once already.

Agreed. Unfortunately in our area, high school ejections are non-existent. I think that was in the back of my mind. There is no question in my mind, however, that an ejection was appropriate. I just wanted the feedback of the board.

[canablue05]

Originally Posted by mrm21711

Agreed. Unfortunately in our area, high school ejections are non-existent.

Can you elaborate for me please? Does this mean you're not encouraged to eject by the league, or they are so well behaved that it never happens?

Ejections are a part of baseball. They happen.

[mrm21711]

Originally Posted by canablue05

Can you elaborate for me please? Does this mean you're not encouraged to eject by the league, or they are so well behaved that it never happens?

Ejections are a part of baseball. They happen.

Believe me, I think it is insane/stupid, ect.

A lot of our top guys will always claim "they have never ejected somebody from a high school game." Now we all know, people who have worked for 20+ years without ejecting a coach are not doing everything right. It is strange in our area, but true, there are VERY VERY few ejections during high school games.

There are no outside pressures from our association or leagues, though. It is the overall makeup of our association I would say.

[blewthatone]

I'm sorry, I think that 80-90 seconds is way too long. I start counting to about 15 as soon as he hits the mound. That is if he is talking to the pitcher. If he is just standing there waiting, don't wait just go out there because he wants you out there to complain. The rest of the situation was fine I thought.

[jenk5482]

Originally Posted by mrm21711

Believe me, I think it is insane/stupid, ect.

A lot of our top guys will always claim "they have never ejected somebody from a high school game." Now we all know, people who have worked for 20+ years without ejecting a coach are not doing everything right. It is strange in our area, but true, there are VERY VERY few ejections during high school games.

There are no outside pressures from our association or leagues, though. It is the overall makeup of our association I would say.

MRM,

I find this a lot in my area too. Where in the US are you located? I'm in the mid-Atlantic/NE region, and I've found with a lot of people in this area of the country, it's the same.

[DG]

Originally Posted by mrm21711

One pitch myself & partner agreed I got correct, the other pitch my partner felt it could have been about 1/4 of an inch or so low.

Bottom 6, 9-0 (I believe, visiting team is losing). Few close pitches dont go his way and comes out for a conference with his pitcher after that batter walked. I stay put on the opposite foul line, and after 80-90 seconds or so, its obvious hes baiting me to come out to the mound. So I head out there, and no surprise, hes waiting to "discuss" a bunch of close calls that didnt go his way. He mentions how "all these close calls are going the other team's way," "I want to make you a better umpire for the future," and "we need to be more fair." I warned him again saying we will not discuss balls/strikes, previous close calls, most importantly the crew's integrity, and that we were done. I turned around, and he followed. I warned him again, and as he kept going, I threw him out.

When did you and your partner have this 1/4 inch discussion, between innings or after the game? What position was he standing in on the field for this assessment?

If a coach goes to the mound to talk with the pitcher and it is obvious to me he is not talking to the pitcher but just waiting for me to come out, I oblige him immediately. 80-90 seconds would seem like a lifetime, maybe 20-30 seconds of time on the mind and I am heading out there to break it up. If you give a warning, don't do it twice.

[lawump]

For what its worth, the pro school mechanic (as of 1997) is the following: If you know that the coach/manager is out at the mound solely to get an opportunity to "discuss" things with you, the plate umpire, should go out to the mound immediately and, in the words of Mills Lane, "get it on".

I don't mean that you go out there and initiate the arguing. But you do go out there immediately and "get it over with" and let him make his first comment to you. You then either (1) warn him or (2) eject him (depending on the severity of the first comment).

If you warn, then if he gives one more non-personal comment as he's heading back to the dugout (such as "bear down") then you let it go and get the game started. If he continues the discussion (especially if its about balls and strikes) and does not head back to the dugout then toss him.

One other comment: I NEVER start returning to the plate until the coach leaves the mound. Why? You're out there to break up a conference...you don't leave until the conference is broken up. Nothing looks more foolish than an umpire going out to the mound, and coming back to the plate area only to have the coach still talking to his pitcher.

In your case You should give him the warning and stay put. Don't be agressive, but don't back down by walking away. If he starts walking to his dugout, then you go back to the plate. If he then deviates from his course toward the dugout to come back and resume talking with you at the plate: toss him. If he continues to yell at you as he's walking to the dugout, toss him if appropriate. In otherwords, ANY time I go to break up a mound conference, I'm the last one to leave (except when a coach decides to bring in a new pitcher).

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by lawump

For what its worth, the pro school mechanic (as of 1997) is the following: If you know that the coach/manager is out at the mound solely to get an opportunity to "discuss" things with you, the plate umpire, should go out to the mound immediately and, in the words of Mills Lane, "get it on".

I don't mean that you go out there and initiate the arguing. But you do go out there immediately and "get it over with" and let him make his first comment to you. You then either (1) warn him or (2) eject him (depending on the severity of the first comment).

If you warn, then if he gives one more non-personal comment as he's heading back to the dugout (such as "bear down") then you let it go and get the game started. If he continues the discussion (especially if its about balls and strikes) and does not head back to the dugout then toss him.

One other comment: I NEVER start returning to the plate until the coach leaves the mound. Why? You're out there to break up a conference...you don't leave until the conference is broken up. Nothing looks more foolish than an umpire going out to the mound, and coming back to the plate area only to have the coach still talking to his pitcher.

In your case You should give him the warning and stay put. Don't be agressive, but don't back down by walking away. If he starts walking to his dugout, then you go back to the plate. If he then deviates from his course toward the dugout to come back and resume talking with you at the plate: toss him. If he continues to yell at you as he's walking to the dugout, toss him if appropriate. In otherwords, ANY time I go to break up a mound conference, I'm the last one to leave (except when a coach decides to bring in a new pitcher).

I agree with almost everything you say here. The one thing I'm not sure about is allowing the coach to tell you to "bear down." To me, depending on how audible this comment was, would be grounds for ejection. If it was said louder than under his breath, I would dump him. Steve Garvey earned his one and only ML ejection for telling Charlie Williams to "bear down." I don't know about you, but I never cared much for coaches who tried to tell me how to umpire.

[mrm21711]

I agree...I waited way too long. In the back of my head I was thinking, "Im gonna show him I know whats going on and give him one chance to avoid any situation." Sometimes you just cannot avoid these things.

To clarify what Steve & some others commented on, the discussion started on the way back from the conference. We got to the home plate area, and thats where I offered a warning and subsequently dumped him.

I know this flies in the face of everything we know is right, but I was so cautious because I know that based on my area, many would say I was "over agressive" in this situation.

Thanks to everybody who responded.

[mcrowder]

I don't know about heading out there immediately if you "Know" he's out there to discuss pitches with you. This isn't MLB. If you head out immediately, and it turns out he's calmed down during his trek to the mound, and is actually going to tell his pitcher something ... what are you going to do then? Instigate? Listen in? Neither are appropriate.

Treat ALL mound conferences the same. Mask off, Brush out, clean plate, check card, put everything away - 10 seconds or so. If he's still there start walking (unless you work in Oregon) out slowly - 10 more seconds. 20 is plenty.

And Ozzy's verbiage advice is gold.

[lawump]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

I don't know about heading out there immediately if you "Know" he's out there to discuss pitches with you. This isn't MLB. If you head out immediately, and it turns out he's calmed down during his trek to the mound, and is actually going to tell his pitcher something ... what are you going to do then? Instigate? Listen in? Neither are appropriate.

Treat ALL mound conferences the same. Mask off, Brush out, clean plate, check card, put everything away - 10 seconds or so. If he's still there start walking (unless you work in Oregon) out slowly - 10 more seconds. 20 is plenty.

And Ozzy's verbiage advice is gold.

In little league you might be right...but high school and college you "know" when a manager/head coach is only out there to discuss things with you. How do you know? Here are some signs:

(1) You can tell from the situation in the game. (For instance: Close calls going against defense/pitcher; pitcher may be complaining or staring in, etc.; and the tension in the game is so thick "you could cut it with a knife.")

(2) He makes contact with you as he heads out to the mound (maybe even shaking his head), or he just stares you down. OR as he goes out to the mounds he doesn't just stroll out to the mound like normal...but rather MARCHES very purposefully to the mound (as in he wants to get there very quickly...so he can get to talking to you very quickly).

(2) He gets out to the mound and doesn't even talk to the pitcher/players but for a second. Rather, he's spending more time looking down at his shoe as he kicks around the dirt around the pitcher's plate.

(3) The head coach has his back to you, but a middle infielder (who is at the mound) is looking over the manager's shoulder at you. (A very, very strong indicator that the middle infielder waiting to tell his manager, "here he (the umpire) comes."

With any degree of experience, the umpire "knows". At that point its time to "get it on".