Batter Missing First Base

[tibear]

Question on another umpire site that I want to clarify.

Situation: Runner on 3rd, 2 outs. Batter hits a clean double to score the R3. However, defence successfully appeals that batter never touched first base. Does R3 score? The other site claimed that 4.09 (a) Exception 1 states that the run shouldn't count because the out was called "before the batter touched first base."

I always understood that appeals did not affect prior runs, ie appeals were not force plays but timing plays. Thus all prior runs on appeals were valid.

I'm sure someone will set me straight.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tibear

Question on another umpire site that I want to clarify.

Situation: Runner on 3rd, 2 outs. Batter hits a clean double to score the R3. However, defence successfully appeals that batter never touched first base. Does R3 score? The other site claimed that 4.09 (a) Exception 1 states that the run shouldn't count because the out was called "before the batter touched first base."

I always understood that appeals did not affect prior runs, ie appeals were not force plays but timing plays. Thus all prior runs on appeals were valid.

I'm sure someone will set me straight.

An appeal out can be a force play (if the runner was forced to the base he missed), a timing play (if the runner left early on a caught fly or was not forced to the base missed) or an out by the BR before touching first (as in your example).

The run does not count.

[tibear]

I've found my answer and learned something in the process. Further explanation for 4.09 gives:
Approved Ruling: No run shall score during a play in which the third out is made by the batter runner before he touches first base. Example: One out, Jones on second, Smith on first. The batter, Brown, hits safely. Jones scores. Smith is out on the throw to the plate. Two outs. But Brown missed first base. The ball is thrown to first, an appeal is made, and Brown is out. Three outs. Since Jones crossed the plate during a play in which the third out was made by the batter runner before he touched first base, Jones' run does not count.

Learn something new everyday.

[TussAgee11]

tibear-

1 out, R2 and R3. Fly ball to F9. Both R2 and R3 tag up. Catch is made and both runners advance. The defense throws the ball to second and appeals that R2 left early, which he did.

R3's run score?

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by tibear

I've found my answer and learned something in the process. Further explanation for 4.09 gives:
Approved Ruling: No run shall score during a play in which the third out is made by the batter runner before he touches first base. Example: One out, Jones on second, Smith on first. The batter, Brown, hits safely. Jones scores. Smith is out on the throw to the plate. Two outs. But Brown missed first base. The ball is thrown to first, an appeal is made, and Brown is out. Three outs. Since Jones crossed the plate during a play in which the third out was made by the batter runner before he touched first base, Jones' run does not count.

Learn something new everyday.

Very nice TiBear!

You posted a question @0907 and found your own answer by @0932 on the same date. That means that in 25 minutes, you thought your problem through and took the time to find the answer. You also posted back to tell us that you found the information and where. My hat is off to you - thank you TiBear for that refreshing thread.

See people, here is a perfect example of someone that actually took the time to LEARN something!

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

tibear-

1 out, R2 and R3. Fly ball to F9. Both R2 and R3 tag up. Catch is made and both runners advance. The defense throws the ball to second and appeals that R2 left early, which he did.

R3's run score?

If R3 scored before the3 appeal, yes. It is NOT a force play.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

If R3 scored before the3 appeal, yes. It is NOT a force play.

i think he was asking the question specifically to tibear as a comprehension thing...

[tibear]

If I was to try to simplify the appeal process, there are two situations when appealing a base runner:

1) If a runner was "forced" to run to a base(including first base), if there is a successful appeal on that particular base that would result in the third out in an inning. Any runs which resulted during the play would be erased.

2) If the base being appealed was NOT a "forced" base, ie the runner didn't have to run to the base in question, any run which scored before the successful appeal resulting in the third out in the inning would be valid. This is a timing play and not a force.

Couple of examples:

Sit 1) R1 and R3 and two out. Batter hits a single to RF. R3 scores, R1 on third and BR is on first. Defense successfully appeals R1 touching of second, as a result R3's run would not count because of the force on second.

Sit 2) R1 and R3, two out. Batter hits double. R3 scores, R1 on third and BR on second. Defense successfully appeals BR touching of first, as a result R3's run would not count because of the force on first. (BR was forced to run to first)

Sit 3) R1, two out. Batter hits triple. R1 scores, BR on third. Defense successfully appeals BR touching of second, as a result R3's run would count because there was no force at second base and R1 had touched home plate before the successfully appeal at second.

Would this handle all situations??

[LMan]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

See people, here is a perfect example of someone that actually took the time to LEARN something!

Ozzy, help a bruthuh out....are the hands part of the bat?

[LMan]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

If R3 scored before the3 appeal, yes. It is NOT a force play.

I don't see the approved ruling saying such.

[Delaware Blue]

Originally Posted by LMan

I don't see the approved ruling saying such.

How about 4.09 Approved Ruling: One out, Jones on third, Smith on first, and Brown flies out to right field. Two outs. Jones tags up and scores after the catch. Smith attempted to return to first but the right fielder’s throw beat him to the base. three outs. But Jones scored before the throw to catch Smith reached first base, hence Jones’ run counts. It was not a force play.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by LMan

Ozzy, help a bruthuh out....are the hands part of the bat?

Yes, if the batter had a prosthetic arm and it came off holding the bat!

Come on, Lman! We had a whole discussion on the prosthetic arm and this rule!

[LMan]

Originally Posted by Delaware Blue

How about 4.09 Approved Ruling: One out, Jones on third, Smith on first, and Brown flies out to right field. Two outs. Jones tags up and scores after the catch. Smith attempted to return to first but the right fielder’s throw beat him to the base. three outs. But Jones scored before the throw to catch Smith reached first base, hence Jones’ run counts. It was not a force play.

Yes, but Smith was already at 1B when that play began. That's a clear case of a timing play.

I'm speaking of R3, 2 outs - grounder to F6. The B/R beats the throw but oversteps 1B, (R3 scores in the interim) U1 correctly signals safe at 1B, then there is an appeal at 1B before (now) R1 returns to the bag.

The approved ruling says that it doesn't matter in this case when R3 crossed the plate - a successful appeal of the B/R before acquiring 1B negates the run:

Since Jones crossed the plate during a play in which the third out was made by the batter runner before he touched first base, Jones' run does not count.

Of course, you have to swallow the premise that the B/R did not 'acquire' 1B when he overstepped it, although the conventional wisdom is that he did (hence the initial safe call).

Is this a contradiction?

[Four-Oh]

Originally Posted by LMan

Yes, but Smith was already at 1B when that play began. That's a clear case of a timing play.

I'm speaking of R3, 2 outs - grounder to F6. The B/R beats the throw but oversteps 1B, (R3 scores in the interim) U1 correctly signals safe at 1B, then there is an appeal at 1B before (now) R1 returns to the bag.

The approved ruling says that it doesn't matter in this case when R3 crossed the plate - a successful appeal of the B/R before acquiring 1B negates the run:

Since Jones crossed the plate during a play in which the third out was made by the batter runner before he touched first base, Jones' run does not count.

Of course, you have to swallow the premise that the B/R did not 'acquire' 1B when he overstepped it, although the conventional wisdom is that he did (hence the initial safe call).

Is this a contradiction?

A ruling and a similar play is discussed in J/R (Chapter 10 - Determining a Run, 1.D(1) and Example D/1, p. 82 in my edition). The interpretation given is that the B/R is required to actually touch first base in order for the run to score. It may seem like a deviation from "touch or pass," but it is in line with the actual wording of OBR 4.09 (a) (1). The B/R may well have acquired first, but that's not enough, provided, of course, the defence appeals.

Further, OBR also has an approved ruling to 4.09, whereby a batter who hits an apparent grand slam with two out, but fails to touch first and is, on appeal, called out, ends the half-inning with no runs scoring on the play.

Any other authorities have a different opinion?

Andrew

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Four-Oh

A ruling and a similar play is discussed in J/R (Chapter 10 - Determining a Run, 1.D(1) and Example D/1, p. 82 in my edition). The interpretation given is that the B/R is required to actually touch first base in order for the run to score. It may seem like a deviation from "touch or pass," but it is in line with the actual wording of OBR 4.09 (a) (1). The B/R may well have acquired first, but that's not enough, provided, of course, the defence appeals.

Further, OBR also has an approved ruling to 4.09, whereby a batter who hits an apparent grand slam with two out, but fails to touch first and is, on appeal, called out, ends the half-inning with no runs scoring on the play.

Any other authorities have a different opinion?
Andrew

Uh, Andrew, if the ruling is in the official rules then different opinions don't matter.