Rules We Don't Like

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

BTW-I thought you were "Scooper" Steve at first base?

Indeed I was during my early youth, all the way through Thoroughbred (what is the equivalent of today's Palomino 17-18). After my stint in the Army, I played in adult leagues, including baseball, fast-pitch softball, and 3-pitch leagues, as well as good ol' fashioned pick-up "beer ball" games on Saturdays and Sundays year round. In these leagues, I loved to play catcher, and my teammates loved having me there because I loved to block the plate.

The only thing that stopped me from my insatiable appetite to play ball was my finding umpiring (as well as reffing bball and football), and involving myself in that 6 to 7 days a week instead. I lost the desire to continue to be a "rat" once I discovered the joy of arbitration.

And yes, I could pick it at 1st base with the best of them.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by SAump

Theads by Pete Booth (#10), greymule (#11), Justme (#13) and D-man (#19) all discuss the problems umpires have controlling bad behavior in the modern game.

There is an interesting collection of videos on Youtube covering a serious fight between the Flyers and Tbones. I strongly suggest that YOU watch the short videos documenting the event.

Video 1: http://youtube.com/watch?v=tiYuY8zAx6c
Video 2: http://youtube.com/watch?v=8n7P9vUQz...elated&search=
Vidoe 3: http://youtube.com/watch?v=jdbdeYT1V...elated&search=

Video 4: http://youtube.com/watch?v=3R-k3xWEF...elated&search=

Not much anyone could do before all hell broke loose. I applaud the Tbone manager for trying to take control of his players and returning them back to the dugout after things began to settle down.

The video that hit home was when the Flyers HC blamed the ump immediately AFTER the fight had taken place and the UMPIRE'S strong reaction against the charge. I also note that the Flyers HC didn't do **** himself before that fiasco took place. I strongly encourage umpires to use it as a "training" topic with young umpires.

It would be interesting to know what penalties were handed out.

The question is.... who gets ejected in this? Just the guys that started the fight or what?

In FED anyone that leaves their posisiton to go fight is ejected, so since both benches cleared, is everyone ejected and the game thrown out?

[Justme]

Originally Posted by SAump

Theads by Pete Booth (#10), greymule (#11), Justme (#13) and D-man (#19) all discuss the problems umpires have controlling bad behavior in the modern game.

There is an interesting collection of videos on Youtube covering a serious fight between the Flyers and Tbones. I strongly suggest that YOU watch the short videos documenting the event.

Video 1: http://youtube.com/watch?v=tiYuY8zAx6c
Video 2: http://youtube.com/watch?v=8n7P9vUQz...elated&search=
Vidoe 3: http://youtube.com/watch?v=jdbdeYT1V...elated&search=

Video 4: http://youtube.com/watch?v=3R-k3xWEF...elated&search=

Not much anyone could do before all hell broke loose. I applaud the Tbone manager for trying to take control of his players and returning them back to the dugout after things began to settle down.

The video that hit home was when the Flyers HC blamed the ump immediately AFTER the fight had taken place and the UMPIRE'S strong reaction against the charge. I also note that the Flyers HC didn't do **** himself before that fiasco took place. I strongly encourage umpires to use it as a "training" topic with young umpires.

It would be interesting to know what penalties were handed out.

It is unlikely that the majority of umpires on this board will ever experience anything like this. In this situation I would do just what these guys did, stand back and watch the action while writing down numbers of the players starting the fight.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Justme

It is unlikely that the majority of umpires on this board will ever experience anything like this.

True, but I would hope the ONE umpire who has this kind of crap on his resume is not negatively affected by it. Preventive game management is something we can all think about and work on. I feel the PU was unfairly criticized by HC at the most inappropriate time. To top it off, I did not see one security or administrative official interject throughout the entire melee. Why is it the Umpire is only held to such a high standard as Pete Booth suggested in thread #10?

Originally Posted by Justme

In this situation I would do just what these guys did, stand back and watch the action while writing down numbers of the players starting the fight.

Gee, they could write a book. I am not a writer and I don't carry a tape recorder or camera and when I get into a fight I don't really remember anything that happens other than the overall picture. I can't even remember faces, facts and words that may help me explain inappropriate actions by all of the idiots who may be involved. The details were lost in the melee and at the end the melee gets dumped on the UMP.

[DG]

Never seen anything like this. Game is over in FED, because everybody that fought or left the bench to fight is gone.

From video 4 it looks like the batter and the catcher are having words before the next pitch that went behind his back. This is confirmed by catcher's comments in video 2. If ump had gotten between the two when they were having words and put a stop to that this might not have happened. And the ball headed guy that came up to the plate with no helment on while they were talking should have been dealt with also.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by DG

Never seen anything like this. Game is over in FED, because everybody that fought or left the bench to fight is gone.

So would the game be totally thrown out and replayed or treated like a game that got rained out and is able to be resumed?

[DG]

Originally Posted by bossman72

So would the game be totally thrown out and replayed or treated like a game that got rained out and is able to be resumed?

I expect the state would put an end to both team's seasons, and the coaching staffs should lose their coaching jobs for not providing the necessary leadership to prevent such a thing from happening. In a FED game the PU shouldn't let the catcher and batter jaw at each other and shouldn't allow the on deck batter anywhere near the plate with a batter in the box, and should issue a team warning for not having a helmet on.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by SAump

Gee, they could write a book. I am not a writer and I don't carry a tape recorder or camera and when I get into a fight I don't really remember anything that happens other than the overall picture.

The umpires weren't fighting. After the first ump got run over they just stood back and watched (as I would have done).

Originally Posted by SAump

I can't even remember faces, facts and words that may help me explain inappropriate actions by all of the idiots who may be involved. The details were lost in the melee and at the end the melee gets dumped on the UMP.

I'm glad that I have a better memory then you and, as the PU, have a pencil to write with & paper to write on.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Justme

The umpires weren't fighting. After the first ump got run over they just stood back and watched (as I would have done).

I'm glad that I have a better memory then you and, as the PU, have a pencil to write with & paper to write on.

Sure they can fight and I can sit and watch from the sidelines. What preventive measures are in place to stop other situations like this from occuring in the first place? I do not want this to turn into another blame the ump for allowing it to happen campaign because I know he wasn't responsible. Are we as a society going to continue to allow our athletes to get away with murder?

What happens to the lunatics who began this mess? What about the other lunatics running after each other for NO apparent reason? Are they going to face criminal assualt charges? If management continues to list names of these lunatics on their playing roster, are they also going to face possible civil liability issues as employers? I would like to know that one "out of control" HC was made aware of his responsibilities within the organization. If the word doesn't get out, why write anything down?

[Justme]

Originally Posted by SAump

Sure they can fight and I can sit and watch from the sidelines. What preventive measures are in place to stop other situations like this from occuring in the first place? I do not want this to turn into another blame the ump for allowing it to happen campaign because I know he wasn't responsible. Are we as a society going to continue to allow our athletes to get away with murder?

Preventive measures? You mean like having armed guards & shooting the first SOB to throw a punch? How do you suggest that it be handled?

Originally Posted by SAump

What happens to the lunatics who began this mess? What about the other lunatics running after each other for NO apparent reason?

Lunatics? That's a little rough isn't it? I'm sure that there will be some league punishment like fines (if pro) or suspensions (or both) but it is unlikely that we'll be able to know what it was.

Originally Posted by SAump

Are they going to face criminal assualt charges?

Criminal assualt charges? There goes hockey. Maybe if someone used a bat as a weapon but not just for a bench clearing brawl.

Originally Posted by SAump

If management continues to list names of these lunatics on their playing roster, are they also going to face possible civil liability issues as employers?

There's the "L" word again.... Civil liability? Come on......just think insurance and let the law suits begin.

Originally Posted by SAump

I would like to know that one "out of control" HC was made aware of his responsibilities within the organization.

You can write and ask the HC's management, maybe they'll tell you. They haven't told me anything.

Originally Posted by SAump

If the word doesn't get out, why write anything down?

Why write anything down? There are always reports to be made, got to have paperwork, and if your memory is as bad as you said it was then you should write stuff down.

How would you get the word out?

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Justme

Preventive measures? You mean like having armed guards & shooting the first SOB to throw a punch? How do you suggest that it be handled?

Very good suggestion. Awareness classes, field security armed with video equipment. The SOB has to know he will be shot. Can't depend on the networks to carry MiLB or the quality of a spectator's NCAA/HS Fancam.

Originally Posted by Justme

Lunatics? That's a little rough isn't it? I'm sure that there will be some league punishment like fines (if pro) or suspensions (or both) but it is unlikely that we'll be able to know what it was.

I agree and apologize to the lunatics, hooligan is a more appropriate term.

Originally Posted by Justme

Criminal assualt charges? There goes hockey. Maybe if someone used a bat as a weapon but not just for a bench clearing brawl.

Yep, misdemeanor charges of disorderly conduct, assault, or aggravated assualt should put a stop to these shenanagans. Sentenced to a court work program, anger management classes and community service costs.

Originally Posted by Justme

There's the "L" word again.... Civil liability? Come on......just think insurance and let the law suits begin. You can write and ask the HC's management, maybe they'll tell you. They haven't told me anything.

A lawyer's ad said, "The insurance company has gotta know who it's dealing with." It certainly isn't the victim.

Originally Posted by Justme

Why write anything down? There are always reports to be made, got to have paperwork, and if your memory is as bad as you said it was then you should write stuff down.

Ball Game works well for me. The suggestion of fans walking away should work for the OWNERS.

[greymule]

Good videos, but the whole thing is quite depressing to watch. It smacks so much of the drunken over-the-hill hotheads in slow-pitch softball—the kind of crap that impels townships to discontinue leagues.

The tough guy has seen the big leaguers shove cameramen, so he figures that he has to do it, too.

I certainly hope there are consequences.

I've traveled to Schaumburg many times. Never knew the place to have a minor league team, but maybe they do. If Schaumburg is playing Kansas City, it's hard to believe it's some semi-pro league. On one of my trips, I stopped in St. Charles, Illinois, not too far from Schaumburg, to see their minor league team. One dollar to park.

[greymule]

I had you living near Princeton, in NJ.

Correct. Since 1954. Lived one block from Einstein until he died in 1955.

Yep. Me and Al had some good times.

From 1984 to 1995 I traveled the country for AT&T and a bunch of other companies. Put at least half a million miles on my frequent flyer cards.

Today my only travel is to umpire. I now do all my work in my home office and am quite thankful I don't have to fly anywhere. I'm sure I would be hauled away in handcuffs for having a belt buckle or chapstick that could be used as a weapon or for some similar violation.

I plan to move to Alabama or Georgia when my obligations here are over. As has been mentioned often on this site, New Jersey is run by idiots. Our ultra-rich airhead governor is now set to commute the sentences of all the murderers on the state's death row, including the monster who raped and murdered little Megan Kanka (cf. Megan's Law) and then dumped her corpse in the woods.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by greymule

I had you living near Princeton, in NJ.

I deleted my original comment after confirming the very same info moments later in the "flag placement" thread. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Speaking of airplanes, I am also reminded of turbulent flow around them, the rising fastball discussions, and your conversation with Mr. Reynolds.

How does a 400 mph, 150 ton airliner undergo unexplained "rising actions" in middle of horizontal or downward flight? Boundary layer turbulent flow may explain both the fluttering action of a knuckleball and the necessary lift component of a rising fastball. But then again, a round white cowhide doesn't have red threaded wings attached to it, either. Of course it would be easier to prove if someone could throw a rising fastball.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by SAump

Theads by Pete Booth (#10), greymule (#11), Justme (#13) and D-man (#19) all discuss the problems umpires have controlling bad behavior in the modern game.

There is an interesting collection of videos on Youtube covering a serious fight between the Flyers and Tbones. I strongly suggest that YOU watch the short videos documenting the event.

Video 1: http://youtube.com/watch?v=tiYuY8zAx6c
Video 2: http://youtube.com/watch?v=8n7P9vUQz...elated&search=
Vidoe 3: http://youtube.com/watch?v=jdbdeYT1V...elated&search=

Video 4: http://youtube.com/watch?v=3R-k3xWEF...elated&search=

Not much anyone could do before all hell broke loose. I applaud the Tbone manager for trying to take control of his players and returning them back to the dugout after things began to settle down.

The video that hit home was when the Flyers HC blamed the ump immediately AFTER the fight had taken place and the UMPIRE'S strong reaction against the charge. I also note that the Flyers HC didn't do **** himself before that fiasco took place. I strongly encourage umpires to use it as a "training" topic with young umpires.

It would be interesting to know what penalties were handed out.

What is the realistic expectation of the UIC here? Remember, this is a professional baseball game being played by grown men.

The plate ump did exactly what he was supposed to do, issue a warning. It's hard to tell how much bad blood there was between these two teams before the game began. Is that UIC's fault as well? No.

If this were a FED game, many of us would take care of it by giving an early gate (I think), but this level of baseball is much different. These men (and I use that term loosely) are supposed to know and abide by the unwritten rules concerning "showing up" their opponent and playing the game "the right way."

Sometimes things get out of control in competitive sports. At the professional level, it's the job of the club and league offices to control these jerks. The umpires are there to call the game, not teach proper behavior. But at the HS level, many upires are required to teach as well because maybe the coaches don't know any better.