Administer This Play

[JJ]

OBR. R1, 0 out, 3-1 on the batter. Next pitch is borderline, and R1 attempts to steal. The call of the pitch is inaudible and no signal is given, and the throw from the catcher easily beats R1, who is tagged.
Not knowing what the pitch was, I observed the play and did not SIGNAL out, but I told the runner - who ended up on second base - "You're out unless it was ball four". I then turned to look at the plate umpire, who finally indicated it WAS ball four.
I know the runner is supposed to be aware of the count and the situation, but he would have been out by a mile. Should I have kept my mouth shut? Not made a call until I was aware of the call of the pitch? It looked bad enough as it was - that would have made it look worse. There was a lot of lag time...
Thoughts?

JJ

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by JJ

OBR. R1, 0 out, 3-1 on the batter. Next pitch is borderline, and R1 attempts to steal. The call of the pitch is inaudible and no signal is given, and the throw from the catcher easily beats R1, who is tagged.
Not knowing what the pitch was, I observed the play and did not SIGNAL out, but I told the runner - who ended up on second base - "You're out unless it was ball four". I then turned to look at the plate umpire, who finally indicated it WAS ball four.
I know the runner is supposed to be aware of the count and the situation, but he would have been out by a mile. Should I have kept my mouth shut? Not made a call until I was aware of the call of the pitch? It looked bad enough as it was - that would have made it look worse. There was a lot of lag time...
Thoughts?

JJ

Make the call you see. Fix it afterward if information you did not have led you to an incorrect call.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by JJ

OBR. R1, 0 out, 3-1 on the batter. Next pitch is borderline, and R1 attempts to steal. The call of the pitch is inaudible and no signal is given, and the throw from the catcher easily beats R1, who is tagged.
Not knowing what the pitch was, I observed the play and did not SIGNAL out, but I told the runner - who ended up on second base - "You're out unless it was ball four". I then turned to look at the plate umpire, who finally indicated it WAS ball four.
I know the runner is supposed to be aware of the count and the situation, but he would have been out by a mile. Should I have kept my mouth shut? Not made a call until I was aware of the call of the pitch? It looked bad enough as it was - that would have made it look worse. There was a lot of lag time...
Thoughts?

JJ

If you do not hear the PU's verbal strike call and see his strike mechanic then there's a safe bet it was a ball. But if you're really in doubt call the runner out until you know for sure.

How did your PU indicate ball 4? I've never been taught the "ball" indication/mechanic.

[EMD]

Call R1 out on the tag. You need to take of your responsibilities regardless of the plate umpires actions. Do not get me wrong and hang the guy out on a limb, but we each have a job to do.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by EMD

Call R1 out on the tag. You need to take of your responsibilities regardless of the plate umpires actions. Do not get me wrong and hang the guy out on a limb, but we each have a job to do.

I agree. If I wasn't sure of the call on the batter I would treat it just like a normal steal of second and make my call accordingly. This is a prime example of why we should verbalize all 'ball' calls, and be especially emphatic on the call of 'ball four.' Unless of course you want to be considered as a Smitty and yell out, 'take your base' after saying 'ball.'


Tim.

[Dave Hensley]

I'm in the camp that says the lack of any signal or audible (by you) verbal implies, pretty strongly, that it was ball 4. I don't think you even needed to say anything to the runner at 2B, just look back at your partner to confirm the batter runner is taking his base.

I'm not sure what you thought looked bad, or why.

[newump]

how about on a similar play with a check swing?

how about no safe or out call from BU. call time - to make sure the runner doesn't wander off of the base (if he thinks he was out and doesn't know it was ball four) then confirm the call from the PU or give him help if he needs it on a check and then make the appropriate call if necessary on the runner.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by newump

how about on a similar play with a check swing?

how about no safe or out call from BU. call time - to make sure the runner doesn't wander off of the base (if he thinks he was out and doesn't know it was ball four) then confirm the call from the PU or give him help if he needs it on a check and then make the appropriate call if necessary on the runner.

How about....no. Every other response.....yes.

[Dave Reed]

For JJ's original situation, some posters have suggested an immediate out call is appropriate. I think not making an immediate call is superior. An immediate call is not necessary-- if it were strike two, no subsequent action is possible. But if it were ball 4, then the runner, who has been called out, may well step off the base, perhaps on his way to the third base dugout, and could be tagged again by an alert fielder. Now he really is out, and everybody has seen that he is out. Yet, by making an immediate out call, BU is obliged to try to "fix" it. It's poor game management in my opinion. The unfortunate reality is that BU does not know if the runner is out or instead not liable to be put out. Why on earth would he make a call?

A pre-emptive reply to those who feel that it is the runner's responsibility to know the situation and he therefore deserves to be tagged out if leaves the base after being spuriously called out:
1) If you don't know whether the last pitch was a ball or strike, how should he know?
2) Regrettably, some umpires regard a runner staying at the base after being called out as having "shown them up." A player may have learned the hard way to quickly vacate.

[lawump]

This reminds me of a great play (related to this thread, but not directly on point) from MLB about 6 years ago. Kerwin Danley was the second base ump. The Yankees were on defense...don't remember who they were playing.

R1, three balls on the batter. R1 takes off on the pitch, F2 fires down to second. R1 does a head first slide on the outfield side of second. R1's momentum carries him so that he ends up two or three inches past second base, with his hand out-stretched trying to reach back to second. F6 (Jeter) applies the tag. R1 then gets back on the bag.

Danley then looks back to the plate umpire and sees that he called "ball", so he doesn't signal "safe" or "out", but rather just tells F6 that it was ball four.

However, Jeter then argues that R1 over-ran (overslid) second base while advancing on the walk...which R1 is not allowed to do without being liable to being put out...After about 30-seconds Danley realizes that Jeter is right and gives the out signal...causing a serious WTF moment for everyone else in the ball park.

Even as a Red Sox fan...got to give credit to Jeter for being the first player in the history of MLB to actually know the rules.

[PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by JJ

OBR. R1, 0 out, 3-1 on the batter. Next pitch is borderline, and R1 attempts to steal. The call of the pitch is inaudible and no signal is given, and the throw from the catcher easily beats R1, who is tagged.
Not knowing what the pitch was, I observed the play and did not SIGNAL out, but I told the runner - who ended up on second base - "You're out unless it was ball four". I then turned to look at the plate umpire, who finally indicated it WAS ball four.
I know the runner is supposed to be aware of the count and the situation, but he would have been out by a mile. Should I have kept my mouth shut? Not made a call until I was aware of the call of the pitch? It looked bad enough as it was - that would have made it look worse. There was a lot of lag time...
Thoughts?

JJ

Unfortunately the aforementioned play is not Covered by OBR rules but is Specifically Covered by FED rules. Let's disect what happened.

Next pitch is borderline, and R1 attempts to steal. The call of the pitch is inaudible and no signal is given,

The aforementioned is VERY poor mechanics on the part of the PU. The PU is supposed to call EVERY pitch. It is either a strike or ball not a "maybe" which seemed to be the case here. The PU must say something or at the very least signal something.

The BU's job is to make the call at second base. In this case it would be an out call.

Here's the problem. Players REACT to an umpires call, therefore, for all practical purposes when the runner here's the out call from the BU, and the PU said nothing at this point, the runner will head for his duggout where a smart fielder will Tag him again to make sure of the out.

As mentioned, in FED they have a specific rule govering umpiring mistakes in which it places either team at a disadvantage. OBR has no such ruling, so the bottom line in the play given is that for all practical purposes R1 will be out even on ball 4 because he would be tagged again heading for his duggout after the out call by the BU.

As for the comment that the players should be aware of the situation, that is true but from the thread since NO Signal from the PU was given no-one KNEW what the call was. Also, take a look at this way. Suppose you as an umpire called the runner out and he still stays on the base refusing to accept your out call. Chances are that player would be heading for the showers.

Players do react to the call by the umpire. In FED you can Legally within the rules "fix" it. In OBR one would have to resort to 9.01(c) or simply let the play stand.

Pete Booth

[LMan]

Originally Posted by newump

how about no safe or out call from BU. call time - to make sure the runner doesn't wander off of the base (if he thinks he was out and doesn't know it was ball four) then confirm the call from the PU or give him help if he needs it on a check and then make the appropriate call if necessary on the runner.

You are complicating this unnecessarily. Just make the safe/out call at 2B....then adjust based on what the PU called. If you call him out and its a walk, no big deal. Just leave him at 2B.

This does not 'look bad', it just is.

You (should) have enough to do getting into position and making the s/o call at the bag without worrying about what PU called (if you arent sure at first). Its the PU's job, when he sees the steal begin, to amplify his call on that pitch to let you know what the outcome is. His failure to do so is his fault, not yours.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Pete Booth,

You really don't need to resort to 9.01(c) on this.

In addressing this exact situation, Jim Evans had the following to say:

"The runner stepped off the base as a result of the umpire's improper call. This is a correctable umpire's error, and the umpire should nulify the out."

The MLBUM also states:

"If an umpire's error such as a missed count or number of outs clearly affects the play, every attempt should be made to correct the error, if possible."

[Rich]

I always call out "BALL FOUR," and in this situation I would've been saying it louder so the BU could hear me.

[gordon30307]

As the base umpire you make your call. He's either safe or out. If he's safe the runner is obviously going to stay on the base. If I call him out (and I know it may have been ball four but I'm uncertain) I'll just kill the play and call time and check with my partner. Never had this happen yet, but this is what I would do.