Little League Baseball

[whiskers_ump]

Watching the LL game between Great Lakes, In.
and Oceanside, Ca. tonite, and really got upset.

I saw a coach (Great Lakes, In.) put a win
ahead of his players. He has twelve 11-12-13
year olds on that team that got him there.
His team is down 1-0, having a no-hitter thrown
at them. Top of 6th, three (3) players still
on bench that have not seen action.

By LL rules all players must play...three
consecutive outs or bat once. This is mandatory.
No real options. Play em or the game shall
result in foreiture. He knew this because the TV
people talked to him. He got lucky and got the,
his win. He knew the forfiet would not
matter if his gamble did not pay off, cause they
would have lost 1-0 anyway.

What happens if he lost that gamble? Three kids
sat on the bench that practiced daily for this guy.
They went through district, sectionals, areas, state
regionals and now World Series and this
clown does not let them have their chance.

This coach should be barred all of next season.
MPO, but should be others also.

glen

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump

Watching the LL game between Great Lakes, In.
and Oceanside, Ca. tonite, and really got upset.

I saw a coach (Great Lakes, In.) put a win
ahead of his players. He has twelve 11-12-13
year olds on that team that got him there.
His team is down 1-0, having a no-hitter thrown
at them. Top of 6th, three (3) players still
on bench that have not seen action.

Glen, this is the 1 big problem I have with LL. They preach it's for the kids while we all know that isn't the case.

Before I comment on the Indiana Coach, let me trace back to the Florida Coach. After Florida got beat 2 zip by the "Little Unit", Bronx's Danny Almomte, he blamed the loss (to the media no less), on the PU's strike zone.

Did LL say anything to this coach?

Now we have a coach who blatantly disregarded the MPR rule and what will happen? Answer - Nothing.

It would have been very interesting if ESPN could have put a camera on those Indiana parents whose kids did not get into the game. Also, instead of ESPN always interviewing the "stud" players parents, why not interview the parents of thsoe kids that only get their 1 at bat or play only 3 consecutive defensive outs and get their perspective.

Pete Booth

[Rich Ives]

We don't know if anything was said to the FL manager about his comments. It wouldn't happen in public anyhow. How's his demeanor been since then?

I also think the Indiana manager should be diciplined. His board can, if they wish. Banning him next season might not mean anything if he isn't returning anyhow. I'd prefer firing him NOW.

BTW, a forfeit score is 6-0. It isn't automatic, the opposing manager would have to protest.

[Brent McLaren]

Mandatory Play has damaged Little League to a higher extent then any actions by that manager.

Each year multiple thousands of worthy players are not practising, not travelling and not "getting ready for next year" as the direct result of mandatory play.

Since its institution we have never seen a team at a full compliment of 14 players, come to district play which was the norm before. Even the game you mention only had 12 players. This now permeates all the way to upper level baseball. This year not one district team, at any level, had more then 12 players. Two had 11 and one had 10!

Sorry, mandatory play, in my personal opinion, has been an abomination. Ask anyone who has seen players sitting out a game, in the stands (at a National Championship - seated right next to the national LL President), so the team can play with only 10 players on the bench today. That is another part of the true travesty that is mandatory play.

If they were really concerned the rule would force all teams to carry a full compliment of 14 players, and to play all those players, but it doesn't.

What has it accomplished, fewer players putting on the All-Star uniform, no players getting prepped for the future, no specialist runners, closers etc. Elite players, playing on elite teams, with elite attitudes.

The real travesty is in the rule itself, not the manager's actions.

... in my personal opinion only

Brent

[Jerry]

I'm a huge proponent of mandatory playing time at that age level . . . and for all sports. In baseball, there's no reason you can't have "rotational" batting and fielding. If you've got 10 players, all bat in rotation. On defense, the 1st nine play the 1st inning, players 2 through 10 play in the field during the 2nd inning, etc. If you've got 14 players, the same rotation can be used without any problem. Players 1-9 in the 1st inning, 2-10 in the 2nd, 3-11 in the 3rd, etc.

But as someone pointed out, LL isn't really for the kids.

Jerry

[Bandit]

Ok guys, its been awhile since I've been on line and had a lot of catching up to do...and I mostly ck the softball threads...But, being from a town less than 10 miles from the Great Lakes/Brownsburg community, having umpired games these boys have played in, and having met the coach...let me assure you that while winning may be important to Gary King it is NOT the #1 thing. Those boys have worked years and hard to get to where they are they know and understand the score and everything else going on, including the parents. If the camera had panned the parents I believe surprise might be the reaction, and not on the parents part. Granted it was a calculated gamble on the coaches part but don't try and tell me others haven't done the same or we ourselves haven't perhaps used the rules to help end a game or speed up the results. I don't condone it but it does happen. Fire him ??, Ban him ??, guess all the good things that got him/them where they are sorta are all forgetten for one mistake someone else thinks he made ??? Just a little harsh if you ask me. PS. I do agree that I would like to see some of the "support" players shown on TV / interviewed. I'm a big fastpitch softball fan but this team has really energized the local area (lead story on the Indianapolis 11:00 news last night) and it looks like the Little League Association is doing a great job of show these kids a time they will never forget.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by PeteBooth
It would have been very interesting if ESPN could have put a camera on those Indiana parents whose kids did not get into the game. Also, instead of ESPN always interviewing the "stud" players parents, why not interview the parents of thsoe kids that only get their 1 at bat or play only 3 consecutive defensive outs and get their perspective.

Pete Booth

Don't confuse televised sports events with journalism. The TV networks (in this case ESPN) and the sport league or organization (in this case LL baseball) are in a business relationship. Neither wants to make the other look so bad they will not renew the contract.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by Bandit

Granted it was a calculated gamble on the coaches part but don't try and tell me others haven't done the same or we ourselves haven't perhaps used the rules to help end a game or speed up the results. I don't condone it but it does happen. Fire him ??, Ban him ??, guess all the good things that got him/them where they are sorta are all forgetten for one mistake someone else thinks he made ???

Bandit, I realize that when individuals comment on that which is close to home , it tends to strike a nerve or 2, but the botttom line is: One cannot condone what this this coach (or any other coach) did: employ cut-throat tactics simply to win a game.

This coach did not make a mistake - He knew what he was doing because the ESPN field reporter asked him a direct question and he himself said that if we do not tie the score or go ahead, he was willing to take the forfeit.

Yes, IMO he should be suspended for blatantly disregarding a rule that requires kids to get into the game. Suppose you saw your kid sitting on the bench knowing there was a rule that he / she must play and the coach simply refused to follow it. Do not tell me you wouldn't see red at that point.

You can't have it both ways and perhaps that's the problem in youth sports. If one says the game is for the kids, then the rules should also accomodate this. Read Jerry's response

If you want to win, then at least be honest and say so and then get rid of the MPR rule altogether and play as the Big Boys Play

Pete Booth

[bluezebra]

Who's kidding who? LL is for the kids is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. It's for the parents, especially fathers, to live vicariously through their children. The same manager who cheats on MPR, blames the umps, because "they took the game away from the kids". I've seen managers and coaches scream and swear at their players. I've seen LL BOD's ignore blatant cheating, because one the Board was a manager. We live in Southern california, and when we complained To Western Regional, their response was, "It's a local matter". Wake up people, the local BOD is the problem. All they're interested in, is the post-season tournament. And since the advent of national television, it's gotten worse.

I'm not sniping as an outsider. I've been involved as an umpire, coach, manager, player agent, parent and grandparent, since 1956. My four sons played LL. My two grandsons played until they realized the cheating going on in the local league. Our area is growing rapidly. In the 13 years we've lived in this area, a new elementary school and a new middle school have opened. Another elementary school is on the board for the near future. Yet, less kids sign up, and even fewer return. And, it's not because of other things to do. We're in the middle of a desert.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by PeteBooth




This coach did not make a mistake - He knew what he was doing because the ESPN field reporter asked him a direct question and he himself said that if we do not tie the score or go ahead, he was willing to take the forfeit.

Yes, IMO he should be suspended for blatantly disregarding a rule that requires kids to get into the game. Suppose you saw your kid sitting on the bench knowing there was a rule that he / she must play and the coach simply refused to follow it. Do not tell me you wouldn't see red at that point.


Pete Booth [/B]

I agree with Pete all the way here. That coach knew
exactly what he was doing, and it was not for the
KIDS . Some type of disciplinary action should
be taken.

Bandit, he may well be a *nice* guy, but his actions
of Monday eve did not reflect this.

Thanks for replies.

glen

[bluezebra]

Unless a player is one of the "stars", he gets to bat 20 times a year. WOW! We used to bat that many times in a day playing at the park or playground. And, without a bunch of adults telling us what to do. Of course all we did is have fun. But we didn't have those cute uniforms.

Bob

[GarthB]

Bluezebra, I don't how old you are, but you brought back some great memories for me.

I am 51, about to turn 52. I lived in a small town with a population of about 1100 in Upstate New York during my formative baseball years. We only had "organized ball" for 8 and 9 year olds, a league called the "Grasshoppers". I remember the old wool unis, stiff as hell and even hotter.

After "grasshoppers", from age 10 onward, we were on our own. We had a true sandlot ball diamond next to Jimmy (Mouse) Knauss' house which was just before the railroad tracks and about a block from my house, near the P&C grocery.

Mouse, Donnie, Pete, Louie, Jay, Steve, Tommy and I were always one team. There was no catcher. The offense would return the ball. It was pretty standard fare, three strikes or four fouls and you were out. (We got tired of chasing the foul balls)

During the summer we would gather at about 10:00 in the morning and begin hitting fly balls. Mouse's mom would invite us in for sandwiches and kool-aid.

Games would begin around 1:00 and we'd play at least two by dinner time. After dinner, we'd get another one in before the street lights went on. Then we'd throw our gloves in our newspaper baskets and ride our bikes home with a bat cradled across the handlebars and held in place with our thumbs as we steered gingerly.

We had no organization, but we knew our batting averages and our win-loss record. We knew who could pitch and who could dig out the throws at first. Parents would stop by to watch once in a while, but they had no one to yell at. We had no umpire.

Strikes were by swinging or mutual agreement and we had damn few arguments over those. Close plays could create some heat and we would go back and forth, "you're out...I'm safe" for a few minutes before one or the other would give in so we could get the game going again. Usually whoever was leading the game would surrender the argument.

Without coaches we still learned to bunt correctly, lead off, make double plays and hit the ball. Without coaches we all played the positions we liked. Without umpires we were ignorant of a few rules, but we were all mutually ignorant, so it didn't matter.

When our parents did come, they brought sodas (Double Cola, the first soda to come in 16 oz bottles, circa 1960) or kool-aid. They didn't fight with each other or brag about $200 bats. All the gloves and bats in the game probably didn't cost $200 combined.

When we did argue it was about who was going to break Ruth's record, Mantle or Maris. It was about whether the Dodgers or Yankees were really the best team. It was about whether it really took two Marv Thornebury's to get a Whitey Ford.

Baseball was for the kids. Baseball was run by the kids. And we still produced some pretty fair players. At least two from my team played in college. (I'm not counting my four week college career)

We loved the game. We had heroes. And nobody told any of us we weren't good enough to play.

[whiskers_ump]

GarthB,

Great story, kinda makes me forget why I
started this post. I am 64 and I remember
those days also. Great times, times the
current youth will probably never realize
existed.

glen

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by GarthB



We had no organization, but we knew our batting averages and our win-loss record. We knew who could pitch and who could dig out the throws at first. Parents would stop by to watch once in a while, but they had no one to yell at. We had no umpire.

Strikes were by swinging or mutual agreement and we had damn few arguments over those. Close plays could create some heat and we would go back and forth, "you're out...I'm safe" for a few minutes before one or the other would give in so we could get the game going again. Usually whoever was leading the game would surrender the argument.

Garth, great post - that's what's missing today No pick-up Games For balls and strikes we used an old chair or something similar. When the ball hit the chair it was a strike - As you said no arguments.

On close plays, we used the collegiate basketball rule when there is a jump all - Alternating possession. If there was a close call - the offense would get the benefit of doubt on the first one, then the defense and so on an so forth.

Again no arguments. We leanred how to play the game on our own. No $200.00 bats or gloves. We played with the same ball until there was literally no more cork left in it.

Fun times and it's a shame the kids today do not experience that.

Pete Booth

[Rog]

Re: "We had a true sandlot ball diamond next to Jimmy (Mouse) Knauss' house which was just before the railroad tracks and about a block from my house, near the P&C grocery."

I remember when that P&C burned down - you guys weren't smoking behind it after a game were you?!?!?! ;-)