I've been reading and re-reading 8.06 and 3.03 and can't seem find a reason for the J/R interpretation. I've looked in the PBUC manual, and it agrees with J/R concerning 8.06(b) that the pitcher be removed from the game but mentions nothing of J/R's interpretation of substituting F1 without a trip.

Does the MLBUM mention this?


Edited to change conference to trip

Is it a substitution if 2 defensive players switch positions or only if a player not in the game is put into the game?

I have thoroughly checked the MLBUM, and nothing concerning a trip being charged without an actual visit during a substitution of pitcher is mentioned.

According to J/R, "A lineup is an ordered listing of nine (or ten, in cases of the use of a designated hitter) players who are in the game as lineup players... A substitute is a player eligable to play in a game."


According to the above definition, I would think that defensive players switching position would not constitute a "substitution." However, a pitcher switching defensive positions is specifically covered by 3.03.

Steve-
Kindly disregard the PM I just sent... you were posting at the time:D

I don't have the J/R, but wouldn't that imply that if you changed pitchers between innings (sent a new one out from the dugout to start an inning), then the coach just got hit with a charged conf on the old pitcher?

I do a lot of 12 - 14 games in my area and the league I usually work for goes by OBR. So this thread really got me thinking because it is quite common for a pitcher to be pulled on the 2nd trip and sent to say right field and the RF comes in to pitch. It is also not unusual for a team to be playing with only 9 or 10 players due to vacations.

So if I understand this correctly, a pitcher can be pulled on the 1st trip, sent to another defensive position and come back the next inning and pitch again. But if he is pulled on the 2nd trip, then he is completely out of the game, and if that drops them down to 8 players, we walk off the field and declare a forfeit (our league rules require 9 defensive players at all times).

Wow, that is certainly going to be news to a lot of LL coaches in this league!

1. No, it doesn't.

2. The hands not being part of the bat is news to a lot of LL coaches. :D

I believe Bob is misreading the intent of this (see above), but even if he isn't, I don't believe ANYONE would extend it to substituting between innings.

If this is "common" in your area, this is due to poor communication of the rules to them. And since it is common, I would not "spring" this rule on them without making sure they understood the consequences ... but you DO need to retrain them not to visit a pitcher a 2nd time and send him to right field. Whether Bob is right or not, what you describe IS a 2nd visit, and this kid has to sit. What they need to do (in my estimation, and in the estimation of everyone I've ever worked with ... and I must make clear again that this is where Bob and I differ), is approach the UMPIRE (not the mound), and announce that F9 is the new pitcher and F1 is going to right field, and THEN have the kids switch places.

Many youth leagues require only "removal from the mound" on the second trip; not "removal from the game."

And, I seem to recall (but my memory isn't what it used to be; then again, it never was) that Roder (or someone) was specifically asked about the play at hand and indicated that F1 couldn't be moved from the mound to another position after the first visit (because the "move" was a vist, and the second visit requires removal from the game under pure OBR).

Again ... by what rule.

By his (apparently) interpretation that the word "visit" includes "delaying the game to move the pitcher to another position."

Little League has its own rules
 

Little League (tm) requires neither on the second visit in an inning. On the third trip in an inning, he must be removed as pitcher, though not substituted for.

Babe Ruth has this as well...
 

I got hold of a Babe Ruth book, and their rule say that on the second trip in the same inning, the pitcher is removed from the mound only. So just like LL (except its on the second visit), the pulled pitcher can stay in the game.

Now a problem may definately surface during an American Legion contest, as well as many of the Adult wood bat leagues.