Questions from another forum.
 

Another one from the fans. Assume OBR for both.:

"1.) Is it true or is it myth that a new pitcher must throw at least 1 pitch to a batter if he throws one warm-up pitch.

2.) This question pertains to travel ball mostly but I have been told it is in OBR. Is there a rule that prohibits a pitcher from returning to the mound? ie. Starter leaves mound with 2 outs and SS goes to mound. Next inning the starter returns to the mound and the SS back to short. Again with two outs they switch positions. I have been unable to find anything in OBR that states a pitcher can not return to the mound. Only thing I can find is that he must leave the mound if the coach visits twice in one inning. "

Thanks again!

1) The "one warmup" verbiage is in the LL rulebook. However, rule 3.08 of OBR simply says this:

3.08
If no announcement of a substitution is made, the substitute shall be considered as having entered the game when --
(1) If a pitcher, he takes his place on the pitcher’s plate

2) If he leaves because of a second visit, he's done pitching. Depending on the ruleset and the local rules, he can move to SS and then return to pitch.

Rich has already said that throwing a warmup pitch is not required, but the pitcher would be required to pitch until the batter at bat (or his sub) reaches base or is put out, or until the third out is made. The pitcher may be removed before the above criteria is met if he is becomes ill, is injured, or ejected.

The pitcher can only return to pitch once per inning. F1 pitches to first batter, then he switches with SS. SS gets 8 warmup pitches. He pitches to one batter, then they switch back. F1 gets 8 more warmup pitches. He pitches to a batter and then they switch again. SS gets 8 warmup pitches. The original pitcher is done pitching for that inning. He has returned to pitch once in the current inning. He cannot return twice. Original pitcher can return to pitch for the next inning.

I agree with LDUB's answers for OBR, but will add that many (most?) "youth groups" do not allow a pitcher to return to the mound once he's been removed for whatever reason.

Picking off a runner doesn't fulfill the pitcher's obligation... he must complete at least 1 at bat (1 pitch, as mentioned in OP, is also not enough), OR he must get the 3rd out of an inning (which could be accomplished by that pickoff)

mcrowder nailed question 1. In OBR a sub pitcher must pitch to at least 1 batter until said batter completes his time at bat or until the defense is put out (ie the side is retired) or if he is removed due to an injury or illness.

Question 2 is easily answered by remembering that a pitcher may change positions once per inning and still be eligible to return to pitch unless he is removed by rule (second visit by a coach or manager in the same inning) See 3.05 (a)(b).

This why I love these forums, picking up nuances and often overlooked rules all the time.

I did remember about the pitcher can change positions once an inning, but in double-checking the OBR, I did notice that on the second trip to the same pitcher in the same inning, the pitcher must be removed from the GAME.

Frequently in the under high school age leagues I do, and they use OBR, that pitcher heads out to play another defensive position instead and it is understood that he can't come back in and pitch later in the game.

But if I understand 3.03 correctly, not only should the 2nd visit pitcher come out of the game, but he can't come in as a sub for anyone the rest of the game.

Is this correct? With all the 12 - 14 player rosters I see, that could be a real problem. I have never seen this rule enforced so I am just curious as to what I am missing.

Yes the pitcher must be removed from the game. A player who is removed cannot return to the game. If your state uses the OBR for HS play, then they very well may have modified this ruling.

A substitution, if announced prior to the manager visiting the mound, is NOT a visit - so this pitcher could pitch, play SS, pitch, play SS, and NOT be removed from the game.

Just to be clear, that's if the substitution is announced before the manager takes his one "allowed" trip to the mound. If the manager has made an allowed trip and not removed the pitcher, then the pitcher can't (under pure OBR) be moved to another position (as this would be considered a second trip and the pitcher must be removed).

I never really knew this before... this is HUGE! :eek:
Does anyone know if the rule is written exactly the same in the LL and Babe Ruth books? I no longer have copies of these codes and would like to know. I know that when reading the OBR, LL, and Babe Ruth books, the rules are almost identical.

If they are the same, how would you handle this situation when it comes up? My guess is that this is something that has never been enforced in amature ball due to oversight.

I'm not sure that's right, but maybe we are envisioning different things. I'll posit a scenario, you tell me if you'd rule it illegal and if so, by what rule.

Coach makes his visit, pitcher stays in. After finishing this batter, either A) pitcher simply drops the ball and goes to shortstop with F6 coming to the mound, B) coach yells out from the dugout, "Steve, Fred, Switch!", and F1 anf F6 switch places, or C) coach asks for time and proceeds straight to the umpire, telling him he's switching F1 and F6, and then visits new pitcher (old F6) at the mound as he's warming up.

I see all three of these as legal, but it would seem from your previous post that you would not allow any of these - and if I'm reading you right, which rule are you using for this.

From J/R:

[It is a trip if a manager (or his coach)] ...

(e) substitutes a pitcher without a conference.

I just found this in J/R as well! Jeees... just when I think I know the rules...:confused:

OK, I'll be honest - I've read JR, but have never noticed this particular item. My question, then (since no one I know of around here counts it that way) is - what rule is JR using to come to this conclusion. As it was said in the thread the other day - JR et all are not meant to supercede the rulebook, but rather to clarify it or support it. I can't find any reasoning (implied, written, or otherwise) in the rulebook to point me toward charging a conference without an actual conference.

I've been reading and re-reading 8.06 and 3.03 and can't seem find a reason for the J/R interpretation. I've looked in the PBUC manual, and it agrees with J/R concerning 8.06(b) that the pitcher be removed from the game but mentions nothing of J/R's interpretation of substituting F1 without a trip.

Does the MLBUM mention this?


Edited to change conference to trip

Is it a substitution if 2 defensive players switch positions or only if a player not in the game is put into the game?

I have thoroughly checked the MLBUM, and nothing concerning a trip being charged without an actual visit during a substitution of pitcher is mentioned.

According to J/R, "A lineup is an ordered listing of nine (or ten, in cases of the use of a designated hitter) players who are in the game as lineup players... A substitute is a player eligable to play in a game."


According to the above definition, I would think that defensive players switching position would not constitute a "substitution." However, a pitcher switching defensive positions is specifically covered by 3.03.

Steve-
Kindly disregard the PM I just sent... you were posting at the time:D

I don't have the J/R, but wouldn't that imply that if you changed pitchers between innings (sent a new one out from the dugout to start an inning), then the coach just got hit with a charged conf on the old pitcher?

I do a lot of 12 - 14 games in my area and the league I usually work for goes by OBR. So this thread really got me thinking because it is quite common for a pitcher to be pulled on the 2nd trip and sent to say right field and the RF comes in to pitch. It is also not unusual for a team to be playing with only 9 or 10 players due to vacations.

So if I understand this correctly, a pitcher can be pulled on the 1st trip, sent to another defensive position and come back the next inning and pitch again. But if he is pulled on the 2nd trip, then he is completely out of the game, and if that drops them down to 8 players, we walk off the field and declare a forfeit (our league rules require 9 defensive players at all times).

Wow, that is certainly going to be news to a lot of LL coaches in this league!

1. No, it doesn't.

2. The hands not being part of the bat is news to a lot of LL coaches. :D

I believe Bob is misreading the intent of this (see above), but even if he isn't, I don't believe ANYONE would extend it to substituting between innings.

If this is "common" in your area, this is due to poor communication of the rules to them. And since it is common, I would not "spring" this rule on them without making sure they understood the consequences ... but you DO need to retrain them not to visit a pitcher a 2nd time and send him to right field. Whether Bob is right or not, what you describe IS a 2nd visit, and this kid has to sit. What they need to do (in my estimation, and in the estimation of everyone I've ever worked with ... and I must make clear again that this is where Bob and I differ), is approach the UMPIRE (not the mound), and announce that F9 is the new pitcher and F1 is going to right field, and THEN have the kids switch places.

Many youth leagues require only "removal from the mound" on the second trip; not "removal from the game."

And, I seem to recall (but my memory isn't what it used to be; then again, it never was) that Roder (or someone) was specifically asked about the play at hand and indicated that F1 couldn't be moved from the mound to another position after the first visit (because the "move" was a vist, and the second visit requires removal from the game under pure OBR).

Again ... by what rule.

By his (apparently) interpretation that the word "visit" includes "delaying the game to move the pitcher to another position."

Little League has its own rules
 

Little League (tm) requires neither on the second visit in an inning. On the third trip in an inning, he must be removed as pitcher, though not substituted for.

Babe Ruth has this as well...
 

I got hold of a Babe Ruth book, and their rule say that on the second trip in the same inning, the pitcher is removed from the mound only. So just like LL (except its on the second visit), the pulled pitcher can stay in the game.

Now a problem may definately surface during an American Legion contest, as well as many of the Adult wood bat leagues.