One to chew on

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Dave:

The J/R suggests that a batter-runner must be tagged to be put out if he returns to the home base side of first after touching first.

Any runner (including the batter-runner) is out when:

3)A Batter-Runner who advances to first base and then returns to the home plate side of first base can be tagged out while off the base.

i) A shortstop's bad throw is gloved along the home-base side of first base and the B/R dives to first and is safe. The B/R stands up to dust himself off and is standing a couple feet to the home plate side of first base: such B/R is out if tagged off base.


So, I would say the balk is enforced.


Tim.

I would say that according th the interpretation you listed from J/R, the balk is not enforced. Reason being that if all runners including the BR advance 1 base the balk is nullified.

Right?

[BigUmp56]

Here in the above play the batter didn't reach first base safely.

8.05 Penalty The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk.


Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

If R1 made it to 2nd safely, and the BR made it back to 1st before being tagged (as the force was not reinstated), I say that all the requirements were met for 8.05's exception that the BR and all other runners advance at least one base. No reference to the balk, runners at 1st and 2nd, no outs on the play.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

If R1 made it to 2nd safely, and the BR made it back to 1st before being tagged (as the force was not reinstated), I say that all the requirements were met for 8.05's exception that the BR and all other runners advance at least one base. No reference to the balk, runners at 1st and 2nd, no outs on the play.

Assuming you go with Tim's Jaksa/Roder reference, you'd be right. I personally see more logic in the "force" (batter runners aren't forced to 1B because of the way force is defined, but the rules treat batter runners as if they were forced to 1B) being reinstated, because it is on force plays at other bases.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Quick, somebody call Jim!

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Quick, somebody call Jim!

Why? With a "little training and experience", you'd be just as good. Perhaps we should just rely on the SMA.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Why? With a "little training and experience", you'd be just as good. Perhaps we should just rely on the SMA.

Notice the smiley face? I'm freakin' kidding!!!! Lighten up, Francis. Oh, I left out talent. My mistake. Let's not go through this again. It's getting old.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

I personally see more logic in the "force" (batter runners aren't forced to 1B because of the way force is defined, but the rules treat batter runners as if they were forced to 1B) being reinstated, because it is on force plays at other bases.

Dave, I don't think you can reinstate the quasi-force on BR at 1B.

For one thing, as you know it's not a force, it's a quasi-force, so the rules about force plays don't necessarily apply.

Further, 1B is special, so the rationale of other bases doesn't necessarily apply to 1B.

Finally, if the quasi-force were reinstated, then BR should be able to overrun 1B once he returns, but I don't think you'd allow him to do that (and I don't think I would either ).

EG: this case, but runner takes about 5 steps toward home plate before turning back to 1B. He runs through 1B before the ball arrives, and F3 tags him out before he returns to the bag. I'd have an out here.

Ergo: the quasi-force on BR is NOT reinstated if BR retreats toward home, and he must be tagged to be put out.

In the given case, without a tag I have BR safe, nullify the balk, play on.

[RPatrino]

WTH is a quasi-force, Michael? I know quazi is a signaling format in ISDN. HA!

Let's all agree, no balk, no force, R1 and BR advanced one base. BR is in jeopardy with his aimless wandering.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

WTH is a quasi-force, Michael?

You know, dilithium crystals, rips in the space-time continuum, the flux capacitor, midichlorians, etc......

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

WTH is a quasi-force, Michael?

Oh, I just meant 'quasi' in the old-fashioned sense of 'as if': as you know, Bob, by definition, a force play occurs when a runner is forced to advance by the batter becoming a runner. So, technically, the play on BR at 1B can't be a force; yet it's much like a force, and we often talk "as if" it were a force. That's all, nothing fancy.

Edited to add: Dave Hensley, too, knows it's not a true force play, which is why his posts refer to it as a "force," with scare quotes signaling the distinction.