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-   -   Unusual Balk Call (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/27049-unusual-balk-call.html)

TussAgee11 Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by UMP25
This is not an accurate statement. If a pitcher from the rubber throws to the first base bag, he's fine. However, under OBR, he CAN throw to an F3 away from a base if F3 is making a legitimate attempt to retire the runner. Do not get trapped by this "to the base" restriction, because it's not the sole, determining factor. The other key is: "Was F3 legitimately attempting to retire the runner?" If yes, no balk, distance from the base notwithstanding.

Good point, although I think you are misinterpretting this. A pitcher still must throw to a bag. The legitimate attempt to retire a runner only pulls off the restiction of throwing to an occupied base. So if R1 leaves, the pitcher can not throw to F4 running in to make the tag. He must either throw to first or second, without balking.

Correct?

UMP25 Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TussAgee11
Good point, although I think you are misinterpretting this. A pitcher still must throw to a bag. Correct?
That is not an accurate statement. A pitcher can throw to F3 "15 feet away" if F3 is making a legitimate attempt to retire R1.

SAump Fri Jun 16, 2006 01:31am
Warning, Ejection Coming
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
There is NO must throw to the base ruling. You made this up. The fielder must have a chance at making a play. You cannot throw to the fielder out of position to make a play for it is only viewed as a delay of game tactic. You can throw to any fielder at any loction who has an immediate play on the baserunner. Over and OUT.

8.02 (c) Intentionally delay the game by throwing the ball to players other then the catcher, when the batter is in position, except in an attempt to retire a runner.
PENALTY: If, after warning by the umpire, such delaying action is repeated, the pitcher shall be removed from the game.

SAump Fri Jun 16, 2006 01:46am
Did umpire issue a warning?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
8.02 (c) Intentionally delay the game by throwing the ball to players other then the catcher, when the batter is in position, except in an attempt to retire a runner.
PENALTY: If, after warning by the umpire, such delaying action is repeated, the pitcher shall be removed from the game.
A pitcher may throw to any fielder, including outfielders, in a legitimate attempt to retire any runner.

8.05
If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when --
8.05 (h) The pitcher unnecessarily delays the game;
Rule 8.05(h) Comment: Rule 8.05(h) shall not apply when a warning is given pursuant to Rule 8.02(c) (which prohibits intentional delay of a game by throwing to fielders not in an attempt to put a runner out). If a pitcher is ejected pursuant to Rule 8.02(c) for continuing to delay the game, the penalty in Rule 8.05(h) shall also apply. Rule 8.04 (which sets a time limit for a pitcher to deliver the ball when the bases are unoccupied) applies only when there are no runners on base.

SAump Fri Jun 16, 2006 02:01am
How is this a balk?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John L
We had an interesting call the other day. The pitcher threw to 1st base in an attempt to pick off the runner. He had his foot off the rubber when he made the throw. The first baseman was not standing on the bag but was about 6 feet away. When the throw was made the first baseman tagged the runner out who was standing to the right side of the first baseman.

The umpire called it a balk because the first baseman was too far off the bag to take the throw. He quoted a IHSA rule but could not produce it from the rule book. I have talked to several HS coaches, college coaches, expros and some say this is true but others say they have never seen or heard of this rule. What gives??
The pitcher does NOT have to throw directly to the base.
The fielder does NOT have to stand by the base to receive the throw.

bob jenkins Fri Jun 16, 2006 08:25am
Maybe it would help (but I doubt it) :) if we just looked at the "IHSA rule" (sic) the umpire was referencing.

FED 6.2.4J: With R1 on first base and two outs, F1 attempts to pick off R1. AS F1 pivots to throw, he realizes that F3 is not on the base, but is in his normal defensive position. F1 completes the throw without interruption. The coach of the defensive team want a balk called on F1. RULING: As long as F3 is in the proximity of the base, F1 would not be guilty of a balk. Proximity is umpire judgment and is based on whether the fielder is close enough to the base to legitimately make a play on the runner.

mcrowder Fri Jun 16, 2006 08:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wsttxump
I believe it is 100% relivant. FED and NCAA book says this is a legal play as long as the fielder is attempting to make a play. I would say a tag is a pretty good indication that there was a play made.
Fair enough, WestTex - sometimes my brain gets stuck in OBR mode.

mcrowder Fri Jun 16, 2006 08:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by UMP25
That is not an accurate statement. A pitcher can throw to F3 "15 feet away" if F3 is making a legitimate attempt to retire R1.
Not in OBR.

3appleshigh Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:34am
Quote:
8.05 - b) The pitcher, while touching his plate, feints a throw to first base and fails to complete the throw;
(c) The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base;
Rule 8.05(c) Comment: Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk.
A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps.

As you can see inregards to First Base OBR - he must step toward and throw to the BASE. On all other bases since he is not required to throw, he can throw to a player away from the base who can make a play. Otherwise the delay of game bit comes into play.

Tim C Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:52am
Point of order your honor:
 
OK, let me get this straight:

For this situation let's say:

R1 is 25' off the base taking a HUGE lead.

Without disengaging, F1 and turns and throws to F3 who is standing between R1 and first base (let's say he is standing right next to R1 for this play).

F3 catches the throw and tags the runner.

Some of you are saying that under OBR, even if F3 makes the tag, it is a balk.

Have I understood the play correctly?

Regards,

UMP25 Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
Not in OBR.
Uh, yes in OBR. I verified it with several OBR folks, too, because I knew some folks here would refuse to believe it.

UMP25 Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3appleshigh
As you can see inregards to First Base OBR - he must step toward and throw to the BASE. On all other bases since he is not required to throw, he can throw to a player away from the base who can make a play. Otherwise the delay of game bit comes into play.
No, the delay of game bit does not come into play. You and SA above are completely misinterpreting that rule as well.

Jeesh, enough already! It's bad enough that we have one misinterpreted OBR rule, now we have to bring in from nowhere this delay of game balk rule?

UMP25 Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim C
OK, let me get this straight:

For this situation let's say:

R1 is 25' off the base taking a HUGE lead.

Without disengaging, F1 and turns and throws to F3 who is standing between R1 and first base (let's say he is standing right next to R1 for this play).

F3 catches the throw and tags the runner.

Some of you are saying that under OBR, even if F3 makes the tag, it is a balk.

Have I understood the play correctly?

Regards,

Apparently so, Tim, and I have NO idea where they're coming up with that indefensible ruling. Maybe the same place coaches come up with this mythological 45* thing.

UmpJM Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UMP25
... Maybe the same place coaches come up with this mythological 45* thing.
UMP25,

Uh..., THIS particular coach came up with the "mythological 45* thing" from the following passage in the JEA in the discussion of 8.05(c):

Quote:
Customs and Usage: For practical enforcement purposes, stepping directly means stepping within 45 degrees of a direct, straight line to the base. In other words, the pitcher is NOT stepping MORE toward a different base than the one to which he is throwing.
JM

LMan Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UMP25
Uh, yes in OBR. I verified it with several OBR folks, too, because I knew some folks here would refuse to believe it.
who are "OBR folks?" I can't find that in my manuals.


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