Unusual Balk Call
 

We had an interesting call the other day. The pitcher threw to 1st base in an attempt to pick off the runner. He had his foot off the rubber when he made the throw. The first baseman was not standing on the bag but was about 6 feet away. When the throw was made the firt baseman tagged the runner out who was standing to the right side of the first baseman. The umpire called it a balk because the first baseman was too far off the bag to take the throw. He quoted a IHSA rule but could not produce it from the rule book. I have talked to several HS coaches, college coaches, expros and some say this is true but others say they have never seen or heard of this rule. What gives??

John L.,

This sounds like a bad call to me, for two primary reasons.

The balk rules do, in fact, require an "in contact" pitcher to throw (more or less) "directly" to 1B, once he has "committed" to a move in the direction of 1B, and he is properly balked if instead he throws to the F3 who is "well off" the base and has no possibility of making a play. (No such requirement in regard to 2B or 3B - not even required to throw, only to "step".)

The following is from the J/R discussion of Balks addressing this point:

So, by your description (if I'm reading correctly),

1. the pitcher had legally disengaged and was, therefore, no longer constrained by this proscription. (Strike 1!)

2. the F3 tagged the freakin' runner out! So, even if the F1 threw "from the rubber", he was not in violation. (Strike 2!)

JM

Coach - (1) is right. (2) is wrong. Say the leadoff was 15 feet, and F3 was right beside him - the throw to F3 is perfect for a tag, but is still a balk (if pitcher was on the rubber when the throw was initiated) because he did not throw TO A BASE. F3's proximity to the runner doesn't take the pitcher off the hook in his requirement to throw to a base.

mcrowder,

I certainly wouldn't disagree with your assertion above. However, in John L's sitch, the F3 was alledgedly six ft. off 1B. I would stand by my 2nd assertion in my initial response to John L., NO balk, bad call.

JM

I'd say the biggest problem with this one is the pitcher disengaged. As for throwing to a base, there's no set number in feet or anything, so thats going to be judgement by the Umpire (assuming the pitcher didn't disengage)

TussAgee11,

I wouldn't argue with what you say above either, and your assertion is quite consistent with what it says in the BRD on the subject (#385, for those following along at home):

However, as presented, the bozo who made the balk call in John L.'s sitch did not understand the criteria constraining his judgement, as nicely articulated in the following passage from the MLBUM:

Again, as presented, NOT a balk, bad call.

JM

Coach - your #2, which I was saying is wrong, was:
This is simply not a true statement and is misleading to anyone who doesn't know the rules. The fact that he was close enough to the runner to tag him is entirely 100% irrelevant.

If, however, you'd have said that "6 feet from the base is, in my judgement, not far enough away from the base to be considered a throw by the pitcher 'not to a base'", then I would probably agree with you.

mcrowder,

I believe we are in "violent agreement" on the essential question.

JM

Throw to the base?
 

There is NO must throw to the base ruling. You made this up. The fielder must have a chance at making a play. The pitcher cannot throw to the fielder out of position to make a play for it is only viewed as a delay of game tactic. The pitcher can throw to any fielder at any location who has an immediate play on the baserunner. Over and OUT.

edited twice to replace "You" with "The pitcher".

I believe it is 100% relivant. FED and NCAA book says this is a legal play as long as the fielder is attempting to make a play. I would say a tag is a pretty good indication that there was a play made.

WRONG!

OBR rules - From the rubber, F1 MUST throw directly to 1B, period. Other bases F1 can throw to the base or a fielder.

FED & NCAA - F1 can throw to F3 if he can make the play.

F1 can throw to F3 if F3 is moving towards 1b to make a play. If F1 catches F3 flatfooted, even 6 feet from the base it's a balk. If he is moving toward 1B, catches the ball and then tags the runner, it's an out.

Total agreement Coach. I was just kind of outlining the rule to be able to be fitted to any circumstance. Obviously if he disengages, it is impossible to balk. If he doesn't its umpires judgement if he threw in the vacinity of the base. Kind of a "I'd have to see it" deal.

can we please have some consensus?? Tim??

This is not an accurate statement. If a pitcher from the rubber throws to the first base bag, he's fine. However, under OBR, he CAN throw to an F3 away from a base if F3 is making a legitimate attempt to retire the runner. Do not get trapped by this "to the base" restriction, because it's not the sole, determining factor. The other key is: "Was F3 legitimately attempting to retire the runner?" If yes, no balk, distance from the base notwithstanding.

Good point, although I think you are misinterpretting this. A pitcher still must throw to a bag. The legitimate attempt to retire a runner only pulls off the restiction of throwing to an occupied base. So if R1 leaves, the pitcher can not throw to F4 running in to make the tag. He must either throw to first or second, without balking.

Correct?

That is not an accurate statement. A pitcher can throw to F3 "15 feet away" if F3 is making a legitimate attempt to retire R1.

Warning, Ejection Coming
 

8.02 (c) Intentionally delay the game by throwing the ball to players other then the catcher, when the batter is in position, except in an attempt to retire a runner.
PENALTY: If, after warning by the umpire, such delaying action is repeated, the pitcher shall be removed from the game.

Did umpire issue a warning?
 

A pitcher may throw to any fielder, including outfielders, in a legitimate attempt to retire any runner.

8.05
If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when --
8.05 (h) The pitcher unnecessarily delays the game;
Rule 8.05(h) Comment: Rule 8.05(h) shall not apply when a warning is given pursuant to Rule 8.02(c) (which prohibits intentional delay of a game by throwing to fielders not in an attempt to put a runner out). If a pitcher is ejected pursuant to Rule 8.02(c) for continuing to delay the game, the penalty in Rule 8.05(h) shall also apply. Rule 8.04 (which sets a time limit for a pitcher to deliver the ball when the bases are unoccupied) applies only when there are no runners on base.

How is this a balk?
 

The pitcher does NOT have to throw directly to the base.
The fielder does NOT have to stand by the base to receive the throw.

Maybe it would help (but I doubt it) :) if we just looked at the "IHSA rule" (sic) the umpire was referencing.

FED 6.2.4J: With R1 on first base and two outs, F1 attempts to pick off R1. AS F1 pivots to throw, he realizes that F3 is not on the base, but is in his normal defensive position. F1 completes the throw without interruption. The coach of the defensive team want a balk called on F1. RULING: As long as F3 is in the proximity of the base, F1 would not be guilty of a balk. Proximity is umpire judgment and is based on whether the fielder is close enough to the base to legitimately make a play on the runner.

Fair enough, WestTex - sometimes my brain gets stuck in OBR mode.

Not in OBR.

As you can see inregards to First Base OBR - he must step toward and throw to the BASE. On all other bases since he is not required to throw, he can throw to a player away from the base who can make a play. Otherwise the delay of game bit comes into play.

Point of order your honor:
 

OK, let me get this straight:

For this situation let's say:

R1 is 25' off the base taking a HUGE lead.

Without disengaging, F1 and turns and throws to F3 who is standing between R1 and first base (let's say he is standing right next to R1 for this play).

F3 catches the throw and tags the runner.

Some of you are saying that under OBR, even if F3 makes the tag, it is a balk.

Have I understood the play correctly?

Regards,

Uh, yes in OBR. I verified it with several OBR folks, too, because I knew some folks here would refuse to believe it.

No, the delay of game bit does not come into play. You and SA above are completely misinterpreting that rule as well.

Jeesh, enough already! It's bad enough that we have one misinterpreted OBR rule, now we have to bring in from nowhere this delay of game balk rule?

Apparently so, Tim, and I have NO idea where they're coming up with that indefensible ruling. Maybe the same place coaches come up with this mythological 45* thing.

UMP25,

Uh..., THIS particular coach came up with the "mythological 45* thing" from the following passage in the JEA in the discussion of 8.05(c):

JM

who are "OBR folks?" I can't find that in my manuals.

I'm not going to go of on a different rule now (BTW, I learned from Jaksa and Roder at school). Besides, has anyone bothered to every figure out why this 45* thing can't be 45*?

Hint: Let's talk geometry and the diagnonal of a square and the actual position of the rubber relative to this. ;)

I have a theory about where people are getting the idea that throwing to F3 off the base MUST be a balk. It's true that when F3 is playing back (say, with R1, R2), the pitcher can't throw to F3 when F3 is in no position to make a play on R1. But it doesn't follow that you can NEVER throw to F3 when he is off the bag. That's almost as silly as saying that because the rule says "throw to a base," it's a balk if a PLAYER catches the throw.

The purpose of the balk rule is to give the runner a chance of stealing a base by imposing restrictions on how the pitcher can hold him on. I believe that it's within the spirit of the rule (and accepted practice) to allow a throw to F3 off the bag if he has a reasonable chance to make a play - the same rationale, by the way, for allowing F1 to throw to 2B with R1. Provided F1 complied with the other requirements (stepping ahead of throw, etc.) I would not have ruled a balk the given case (F3 six feet from 1B, tags out R1).

A Play Was Made
 

Sheesh, from what I read previously your response were on the money. Now if you read what I wrote you will find that I gave the correct ruling also and the CORRECT OBR rule interpretations. I will not continue this silly debate. It's bad enough when ONE guy makes things UP. It's worse when four or five people agree with his position out of some kind of loyalty thing.

A play was made on the baserunner. It is not a balk. It is an OUT.
Had F3 not had a chance of making a legitimate play, the old rulebook considered it a delay of game and the penalty was a balk. The rules have changed I have have already posted them too. I do not understand why the argument continues. Perhaps, I have learned something.

Perhaps. Anyway, enough of this bickering. Let's all move along now. :)

For reference Ump25, I simply said it comes into play, not that it has to be or should be called, now you need to determine if the throw was simply used to DELAY the GAME. I doubt it would ever be that. Therefore most likely a "play on".

The rules say you must step toward and throw to the BASE. At first you Must complete the action, all other bases don't require this so the Feint to the base is action A, the throw is a subsequent action. At First you must step and throw to the BASE. In my area a Step and reach from the base is OK, but that is the leeway allowed.

The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. -- Doesn't say toward a fielder 25 feet from a base. Now remember at all other bases you can Feint a throw, and therefore do not have to THROW to the BASE. At First YOU MUST STEP AND THROW TO THE BASE.

Oh boy... GEOMETRY
 

That's simple.... the pitchers plate is NOT centered between home plate and second base. It is in fact 1.5 feet closer to home plate...

SCUMP... let's hear the sarcasm...

Redo the Math
 

Right.

Wrong.

Distance from home base to second base is 127 feet, 3.35 inches {OBR 1.04}.
Distance from home base to pitcher's plate is 60 feet, 6 inches {OBR 1.07}.
Redo the math.

I think you're getting a bit too worked up by "what the rule book says." Remember, what the actual words say is not as clear as what official interps. say. The latter often clear up ambiguities and other things that are often vague. For example, this whole concept of throwing to F3 who is making a legitimate attempt to retire R1 isn't even in the book.

:rolleyes:
Ah... I see the flaw in my theory.

I used the Pythagorean Theorem for right triangles. This will not work since the measurement from home to first is to the back edge of the bag but from home to second, it's to the middle...

You're looking at the square the wrong way. While from home to second the distance is 90 x radical 2, I'm hoping folks can cut the 90-foot square into two halves. The top half would be from third to second to first with the diagonal to third, the bottom half from first to home to third, with the same diagonal. The rubber does not rest on this diagonal, so a 45* angle isn't possible. The rubber sits in front of the diagonal.

I'll leave it up to the math geniuses to figure out just how much away from the diagonal the rubber is. :D

The rubber (if I'm envisioning your triangles properly) lies 1.5 feet to the outside of the triangle. I think...:confused:

I'm not Tim, and I can't provide consensus, but I can provide an official citation, from the MLBUM, Balk Regulations 7.5:

(a) The pitcher shall be charged with a balk if, while in contact with the rubber, he throws to the first baseman who is either in front of or behind first base and obviously not making an attempt at retiring the runner at first base. However, there is no violation if the pitcher throws the ball directly to first base in this situation. Also note that there is no violation if the pitcher attempts a pickoff at second or third and throws to an infielder who is in front of or behind either of those bases (i.e., this violation is only in reference to pick-offs at first base). Also see next paragraph in this section.

(b) There is no violation if a pitcher attempts a pick-off at second base and, seeing no fielder covering the bag, throws to the shortstop or second baseman, neither of whom is in the vicinity of the bag nor is making an actual attempt to retire the runner.

OKay, SOme HInts
 

For someone who didn't do the math, I would accept 1.5 feet as a pretty good estimate. It is reasonable given the dimesions of the playing field. If someone does the math, the correct distance is a little more than 3 feet.

For someone who didn't do the math, I would accept 45 DEGREES as a pretty good estimate. It is reasonable given the dimesions of the playing field. If someone does the math, the angle between 1B, pitcher's plate and the 45 FOOT mark along the 1B line is a little more than 46 degrees. Because most math people also round this off to 45 degrees, it is also very acceptable.

Your best post ever! 45 degrees is close enough.

Square table Man Law: 45 degrees is close enough.

The exact play is covered on Evan's balk video. If F3 is standing flat footed when the throw is made it's a balk. If he is moving towards 1B or the runner to receive the ball and make a tag it's not. Distance F3 is from the bag is not a factor. What F3 is doing when F1 turns to throw is. If he surprised and flat footed it's a balk.