Confused

[UmpJM]

GuyMan,

This is actually a deceptively complicated question.

First, on a legally caught batted fly ball any runners are required to retouch their Time of Pitch (TOP) base as or after the in flight batted ball is first touched by a fielder.

Second, when a ball thrown by an outfielder goes out of play (into DBT) any runners at the time are awarded two bases from the last base touched or passed at the time the errant throw left the fielder's hand (as opposed to where they were when that throw actually entered DBT) - that is, it is a Time Of Throw (TOT) award.

Thirdly, the fact that the ball became "dead" does not relieve any runners of their obligation to run the bases legally - if they were required to retouch at the time the ball entered DBT, they are STILL required to retouch, and whether advancing or returning, they are required to touch the bases in sequence.

Fourthly, a runner who has touched home most certainly IS allowed to go back and touch 3B (assuming he is under a requirement to do so) as long as no "following" runner has subsequently touched home and he had first touched home while the ball was still live/in play.

Should a runner fail to comply with these requirements, he is "in jeopardy" of being called out if the defense executes a properly constituted appeal of his baserunning infraction once the ball is again made live.

Now Dixie Youth Baseball uses Official Baseball Rules (OBR) as its "foundation" ruleset. A couple of the points above would be different if Dixie used High School (aka FED) rules as the foundation ruleset.

So, how does all of this apply to your situation?

It sounds like the R3 never actually made it all the way back to 3B to complete his "retouch" requirement. If that is true, you "provisionally" allow the run to score and wait to see whether the defense appeals. If they do so properly, you call him out and negate his run. If he did go back and retouch 3B (which he is certainly allowed to do ), or the defense fails to appeal before the next pitch or play, his run stands.

You never said where the R1 was when the throw left the fielder's hand or whether or not he had fulfilled his retouch requirement. Ultimately he is under the same obligations, and it is most likely that the proper award is 3B.

There is one school of thought that says if he were already past 2B at the TOT, you would provisionally award him home as well, and then, in the event he went back and retouched 1B (while the ball was dead), you would adjust the award to be an award of 3B.

Make sense?

JM

Edited to add the following:

I see a number of others have posted while I was composing my reply. Since there seems to be a number of different and differing statements on the proper ruling, let me offer my $.02.

NIUmp50 asserts that the runner may not go back to retouch 3B once he has touched home. While this would be true under FED rules (whether the ball was live or dead when he did so), since Dixie plays under OBR-based rules his assertion is incorrect.

PWL says this is a TOP award. He's kind of right and kind of wrong. Technically, a throw into DBT by an outfielder is a TOT award; however, with runners obviously required to retouch on the catch, it might as well be a TOP award. In a 9/10 game, that is certainly how I would rule it. Though there is a school of thought that says if the R2 was past 2B at the TOT, you would first award him home. PWL also mentions that if the R3 fails to legally complete his retouch obligation, AND the defense subsequently successfully appeals, no run could score on the play. That is correct. He also asserts that if the R1 failed to complete his retouch obligation and the defense properly appealed, no run could score on the play. I disagree. If the R3 did complete his retouch OR the defense never appealed his failure to do so, his run WOULD score, even if the defense successfully appealed the R1's failure to retouch.

RPatrino, I'm guessing, just made a typo in his last TOP & I'm pretty sure he meant TOT because that would make his statement correct & he pretty much always knows what he's talking about when he posts..

[oneonone]

Thank CoachJM. Very helpful and appreciated insight.

[RPatrino]

I believe PWL is refering to the FED definition of a "play". I don't think it however relates to throws from the outfield, but on plays in the infield.

For example, R2 and Batter hits a ground ball to F6. F6 fields the ball and takes two steps toward the runner at 2nd, then throws past 1b into DBT. Place the runners.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

There is one school of thought that says if he were already past 2B at the TOT, you would provisionally award him home as well, and then, in the event he went back and retouched 1B (while the ball was dead), you would adjust the award to be an award of 3B.

I would hope it's not quite that subjective.

I believe according to OBR (I don't have any materials in front of me, but am looking at MLB's Official Rules online), the award on an overthrow is dictated by "the position" of the runner at the time the ball leaves the fielder's hand. I would assume that "position" is dictated by last base touched, or assumed to have touched, and not last base legally touched. I know that the rule in softball has the phrase "last base touched" in it - note the absence of the word "legally." I'm sure some of the baseball umpire gurus on here could clarify with regard to the exact wording of the OBR.

This means that the runner from 3B is awarded home (and can still retouch home plate on their way to 3B, since no succeeding runner has crossed), and the runner from 1B is (unless they had touched 2B before the throw was released, with or without tagging up at 1B, in which case they would be awarded home) awarded 3B. The runners are then required to legally touch all bases necessary to complete their baserunning responsibilities. If they do not, the defense has the ability to appeal.

This removes all "school of thought" subjectivity in applying the rules and awarding bases.

Knowledgeable baseball umpires - is this the same in baseball, like I hope it is?

[UmpJM]

HawkeyeCubP,

I certainly agree with your point regarding "position" rather than "legally touched".

My "two schools of thought" comment is in regards to the assertion found in J/R that if a runner has obviously failed to retouch, the award should be made from his "original" or TOP base, while the MLBUM (and I believe, though I'm not sure the JEA) says you make the provisional award from the runner's "literal" position at TOT and then adjust if he retouches.

If the baserunning infraction is NOT "obvious", both agree that the award is from the runner's position at TOT, where the progress to that point was achieved "legally" or not.

As a matter of personal preference, the J/R opinion makes sense to me, especially for "youth" ball. The more "youthy", the more it makes sense - to me.

JM

[UmpJM]

PWL,

In regards to your TOP vs. TOT point, I basically agree under FED rules. If the runner had reached/passed a base beyond his TOP base at the time the errant throw was released, and then manages to return past that base before the ball actually becomes dead, his award is made from his TOP or "original" base.

In regards to the scoring question, I would say that the only time a "third out appeal" (or advantageous fourth out, for that matter) is "run-nullifying" is under the following conditions:

1. A runner who scored is successfully appealed (obviously, his run is nullifed)

2. A runner who scored had other runners score behind him and was successfully appealed (both the appealed runner and any following runners who had "apparently" scored have their runs nullified)

3. A forced runner is successfully appealed for "missing" his "forced to" base or a BR is successfuly appealed for "missing" 1B - no run can score on the play.

Under all other conditions, the appeal is treated as a "timing play" for purposes of run-nullification.

JM

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

NIUmp50 asserts that the runner may not go back to retouch 3B once he has touched home. While this would be true under FED rules (whether the ball was live or dead when he did so), since Dixie plays under OBR-based rules his assertion is incorrect.

Not quite true, depending on the specific actions and position of R3 at the time / after the ball became dead.

OBR: A runner can return to retouch as long as he doesn't advance to the next base AFTER the ball becomes dead. So, in the play at hand, R3 can return to touch third whether he was beyond the plate or had already retouched the plate on his return to third.

FED: A runner can return to touch as long as he isn't at or beyond the next base AT THE TIME the ball becomes dead and as long as he doesn't advance AFTER the ball becomes dead. So, in the play at hand, If R3 was still beyond the plate, he couldn't (legally) return to third. If R3 had retouched the plate on his way back to third, he would be allowed to complete the return.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Not quite true, depending on the specific actions and position of R3 at the time / after the ball became dead.

....

bob jenkins,

Thank you. I misspoke and stand corrected.

JM

[GuyMan]

Thank you all for helping me with my confusion. I am more clear now as to what i should have done. Thank you all again.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Not quite true, depending on the specific actions and position of R3 at the time / after the ball became dead.

OBR: A runner can return to retouch as long as he doesn't advance to the next base AFTER the ball becomes dead. So, in the play at hand, R3 can return to touch third whether he was beyond the plate or had already retouched the plate on his return to third.

FED: A runner can return to touch as long as he isn't at or beyond the next base AT THE TIME the ball becomes dead and as long as he doesn't advance AFTER the ball becomes dead. So, in the play at hand, If R3 was still beyond the plate, he couldn't (legally) return to third. If R3 had retouched the plate on his way back to third, he would be allowed to complete the return.

I don't have my rule books with me, but if Bob says I'm wrong, I'm probably wrong and again stand corrected.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by NIump50

I don't have my rule books with me, but if Bob says I'm wrong, I'm probably wrong and again stand corrected.

NIump,

I know what you mean.

Of course, I was doubly embarrassed, because I already knew (or, at least used to know) that what Bob said regarding a FED runner not being able to correct his infraction if he is beyond his advance at the time the thrown ball enters DBT was true. And still I misspoke. Sheesh!

Of course, if one wanted to be a totally nit-picky, Type A, jerk (or, just a smart-a$$ coach, for example), one could also say that bob j.'s assertion in regard to the FED runner who is beyond his advance base wasn't entirely, in all cases, comprehensively correct either.

For example, if we take the third world (fourth dimension????) case where said runner is beyond his advance base AND the umpire judges that the fielder intentionally threw the ball out of play for the sole purpose of preventing the runner's legitimate attempt to return, said runner would be allowed to return, even if beyond his advance base at the time the ball went out of play. (Ref. 8-3-3d, Note).

Of course, since bob's reply was essentially correct, not to mention that it cleared up some material misinformation that I (to my chagrin) had promulgated, I'm not even going to mention his minor oversight.

JM

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Not quite true, depending on the specific actions and position of R3 at the time / after the ball became dead.

OBR: A runner can return to retouch as long as he doesn't advance to the next base AFTER the ball becomes dead. So, in the play at hand, R3 can return to touch third whether he was beyond the plate or had already retouched the plate on his return to third.

OBR
Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when --
(a) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged;
Rule 7.10(a) Comment: “Retouch,” in this rule, means to tag up and start from a contact with the base after the ball is caught. A runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position in back of his base.
(b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.
APPROVED RULING: (1) No runner may return to touch a missed base after a following runner has scored. (2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

Bob,
According to approved ruling #2, if the runner has retouched home base on his return to third, does this nullify the original touching?
On first glance it appears in this sitch the runner could not return to third after the ball went into DBT.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by NIump50

(2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

Bob,
According to approved ruling #2, if the runner has retouched home base on his return to third, does this nullify the original touching?
On first glance it appears in this sitch the runner could not return to third after the ball went into DBT.

It's one of the myriad porrly-worded rules in OBR.

What it means is that if the ball is dead, and the runner THEN advances, the runner cannot now return.

If the runner advances, and the ball then becomes dead, the runner can still return (unless he advances to the NEXT base -- that is, the second base after the one he left early or misssed).

Originally Posted by CoachJM

For example, if we take the third world (fourth dimension????) case where said runner is beyond his advance base AND the umpire judges that the fielder intentionally threw the ball out of play for the sole purpose of preventing the runner's legitimate attempt to return, said runner would be allowed to return, even if beyond his advance base at the time the ball went out of play. (Ref. 8-3-3d, Note).

Yes -- thanks for the supplement.

[lawump]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

There is one school of thought that says if he were already past 2B at the TOT, you would provisionally award him home as well, and then, in the event he went back and retouched 1B (while the ball was dead), you would adjust the award to be an award of 3B.

This would be the school of thought endorsed by the 2003 MLB Umpires' manual...I have not read a more recent version of that book, so I don't know if they've changed it.

PBUC, of course, had a difference school of thought that same year.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

NIUmp50 asserts that the runner may not go back to retouch 3B once he has touched home. While this would be true under FED rules (whether the ball was live or dead when he did so), since Dixie plays under OBR-based rules his assertion is incorrect.

I will be more careful in the future to identify the rule set I am speaking to.
I am not familiar with Dixie and therefore should have asked about their ruleset or clarified which I was referring to.
I stand corrected.