Confused

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

NIUmp50 asserts that the runner may not go back to retouch 3B once he has touched home. While this would be true under FED rules (whether the ball was live or dead when he did so), since Dixie plays under OBR-based rules his assertion is incorrect.

I will be more careful in the future to identify the rule set I am speaking to.
I am not familiar with Dixie and therefore should have asked about their ruleset or clarified which I was referring to.
I stand corrected.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Not quite true, depending on the specific actions and position of R3 at the time / after the ball became dead.

OBR: A runner can return to retouch as long as he doesn't advance to the next base AFTER the ball becomes dead. So, in the play at hand, R3 can return to touch third whether he was beyond the plate or had already retouched the plate on his return to third.

FED: A runner can return to touch as long as he isn't at or beyond the next base AT THE TIME the ball becomes dead and as long as he doesn't advance AFTER the ball becomes dead. So, in the play at hand, If R3 was still beyond the plate, he couldn't (legally) return to third. If R3 had retouched the plate on his way back to third, he would be allowed to complete the return.

I don't have my rule books with me, but if Bob says I'm wrong, I'm probably wrong and again stand corrected.

[RPatrino]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Throws from the outfield are TOT awards. First play in the infield is TOP. Second play in the infield and any outfield plays are TOP.

I, of course, meant TOT on second play's from the infield and outfield plays.

Good catch, Coach!!!

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Not quite true, depending on the specific actions and position of R3 at the time / after the ball became dead.

OBR: A runner can return to retouch as long as he doesn't advance to the next base AFTER the ball becomes dead. So, in the play at hand, R3 can return to touch third whether he was beyond the plate or had already retouched the plate on his return to third.

OBR
Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when --
(a) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged;
Rule 7.10(a) Comment: “Retouch,” in this rule, means to tag up and start from a contact with the base after the ball is caught. A runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position in back of his base.
(b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.
APPROVED RULING: (1) No runner may return to touch a missed base after a following runner has scored. (2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

Bob,
According to approved ruling #2, if the runner has retouched home base on his return to third, does this nullify the original touching?
On first glance it appears in this sitch the runner could not return to third after the ball went into DBT.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by NIump50

I don't have my rule books with me, but if Bob says I'm wrong, I'm probably wrong and again stand corrected.

NIump,

I know what you mean.

Of course, I was doubly embarrassed, because I already knew (or, at least used to know) that what Bob said regarding a FED runner not being able to correct his infraction if he is beyond his advance at the time the thrown ball enters DBT was true. And still I misspoke. Sheesh!

Of course, if one wanted to be a totally nit-picky, Type A, jerk (or, just a smart-a$$ coach, for example), one could also say that bob j.'s assertion in regard to the FED runner who is beyond his advance base wasn't entirely, in all cases, comprehensively correct either.

For example, if we take the third world (fourth dimension????) case where said runner is beyond his advance base AND the umpire judges that the fielder intentionally threw the ball out of play for the sole purpose of preventing the runner's legitimate attempt to return, said runner would be allowed to return, even if beyond his advance base at the time the ball went out of play. (Ref. 8-3-3d, Note).

Of course, since bob's reply was essentially correct, not to mention that it cleared up some material misinformation that I (to my chagrin) had promulgated, I'm not even going to mention his minor oversight.

JM

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by NIump50

(2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

Bob,
According to approved ruling #2, if the runner has retouched home base on his return to third, does this nullify the original touching?
On first glance it appears in this sitch the runner could not return to third after the ball went into DBT.

It's one of the myriad porrly-worded rules in OBR.

What it means is that if the ball is dead, and the runner THEN advances, the runner cannot now return.

If the runner advances, and the ball then becomes dead, the runner can still return (unless he advances to the NEXT base -- that is, the second base after the one he left early or misssed).

Originally Posted by CoachJM

For example, if we take the third world (fourth dimension????) case where said runner is beyond his advance base AND the umpire judges that the fielder intentionally threw the ball out of play for the sole purpose of preventing the runner's legitimate attempt to return, said runner would be allowed to return, even if beyond his advance base at the time the ball went out of play. (Ref. 8-3-3d, Note).

Yes -- thanks for the supplement.

[GuyMan]

Thank you all for helping me with my confusion. I am more clear now as to what i should have done. Thank you all again.