ball strikes runner after it passes an infielder

jcor · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 14, 2001, 03:32am

I realize that if the ball is touched by the infielder then hits the runner you have no infraction. If the ball passes an infielder who does not touch it and strikes a runner, what determines whether or not an infraction has occurred?
Thanks.

Gre144 · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 14, 2001, 10:23am

Quote:

Originally posted by jcor
I realize that if the ball is touched by the infielder then hits the runner you have no infraction. If the ball passes an infielder who does not touch it and strikes a runner, what determines whether or not an infraction has occurred?
Thanks.

Great question. We just discussed this exact situation in a super long thread. I think that many umpires have many different thoughts on this subject. If the ball passes an infielder excluding F1 and hits the runner and a second infieder would have had a chance to make a play than the runner is out. The point of controversy is what constitutes a second player having a chance to make a play? Hopefully, Papa C will respond because he is the expert on this subject. He discussed something called the "string theory". Admitedly, how this theory works has slipped my mind. Maybe he would be kind enough to go over it again. Also, does anyone know how we can find the last thread on this subject?

Greg

[Edited by Gre144 on Jul 14th, 2001 at 10:28 AM]

#3 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 14, 2001, 11:49pm

Basicly if you're playing OBR then it has to pass the fielder within a playable distance and if no other fielder has a play then the runner is ok. If the ball is not within a playable distance then the runner would be out. In FED it only has to pass the line of fielders to make it live.
This is where the string theory comes in. Assuming not a playable ball if you run a string through all the infielders to make an imaginary wall and the ball passes past through this plane then the ball would be live. This is my understanding of the string theory and I hope a clear explanation, if not there are plenty of guys that can correct me.

Gee · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 15, 2001, 08:05am

Quote:

Originally posted by jcor
I realize that if the ball is touched by the infielder then hits the runner you have no infraction. If the ball passes an infielder who does not touch it and strikes a runner, what determines whether or not an infraction has occurred?
Thanks.

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In OBR the key word is "PASSED" The word passed means within five feet (reasonable chance) of the fielder, not including the pitcher.
(A touched {deflected} ball would include the pitcher).

If it hasn't passed the fielder within that range and then hits a runner he is dead out.

The point is that the offense must give the defense a reasonable chance to field the ball before they interfere. I have that ball protected to the outfield wall.

The FED rules differ. If you attach a string to all of the infielders, not including the pitcher, and the ball passes that string without touching a fielder and hits the runner he is not out and the ball is in play. G.

[Edited by Gee on Jul 15th, 2001 at 09:22 PM]

JJSUmpire · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 15, 2001, 11:38pm

How do you arrive at the "within 5 feet" conclusion? What does that have to do with it. If you think the fielder could have gotten to the ball then the runner is out. Don't start saying "5 feet". What about 5 1/2 feet? Would that be ok? I don't take a ruler on the field with me.

You can also apply the "common sense and fair play" ruling which is the runner is not out once the ball passes an infielder. If the 3rd baseman misses a ball under his glove and it hits the runner you are penalizing the runner and rewarding the 3rd baseman who just missed the ball. The fielder screwed up by missing the ball. Don't penalize the runner! I know what the rule book says and that's how I umpire. But there is a good argument for not penalizing the wrong team. And it's easy to justify in an arguement..."in my judgement your shortstop could not have made a play on the ball". End of discussion. I think you get more heat if you call the runner out. Just my opinion. But I'm wrong 99% of the time according to the fans so what do I know....

Gee · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 16, 2001, 07:41am

Quote:

Originally posted by JJSUmpire
How do you arrive at the "within 5 feet" conclusion? What does that have to do with it. If you think the fielder could have gotten to the ball then the runner is out. Don't start saying "5 feet". What about 5 1/2 feet? Would that be ok? I don't take a ruler on the field with me. You can also apply the "common sense and fair play" ruling which is the runner is not out once the ball passes an infielder. If the 3rd baseman misses a ball under his glove and it hits the runner you are penalizing the runner and rewarding the 3rd baseman who just missed the ball. The fielder screwed up by missing the ball. Don't penalize the runner! I know what the rule book says and that's how I umpire. But there is a good argument for not penalizing the wrong team. And it's easy to justify in an arguement..."in my judgement your shortstop could not have made a play on the ball". End of discussion. I think you get more heat if you call the runner out. Just my opinion. But I'm wrong 99% of the time according to the fans so what do I know....

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OBR.
My five foot distance is a compromise between Jim Evans and Carl Childress. Jim says an arms length, Carl says a step and a reach. You can use whatever distance you want but the five foot rule seems pretty reasonable to me.

If the third baseman misses the ball under his glove and it hits the runner, the runner is NOT out unless their was another infielder directly behind him that could have made the play. That is not from common sense and fair play, it is straight from the OBR. However if the third baseman did not have a reasonable chance to field the ball and it hits the runner that runner is dead out. G.

JJSUmpire · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 16, 2001, 11:29pm

Thanks for telling what the rule book says...You don't see a problem with calling a runner out on an error by the 3rd baseman? That is what the rule book says to do what that does not apply under "common sense and fair play" which is what some Pro School operators suggest. Penalize who screwed up. What do you do when a curveball hits the outside corner, the catcher misses it, it hits his shin gaurd, and rolls over to the grass? Do you call that a strike? The rule book says too. But you don't because of common sense. The catcher screwed up...BALL. We ALL apply that principal. It's the same with the runner after a fielder has a clear shot at the ball and misses it for an error. Opinions are what make this country great. That's mine.