illegal sub?

[Gre144]

Maybe I am looking into this deep but it seems that in all offensive cases, except for a person who violates the courtesy runner rule, an illegal sub is someone who:

re-enters the game while BOO.

If this is not the case can you think of one situation where you have a illegal substitute who is batting in the correct order?(not including the exception for violating the rule for courtesy runners)

This brings me to my question:

Assume A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I

1) Illegal substitute Jones enters for batter A who is the proper batter . Discovery is made while Jones is at the plate. Would A (or a legal sub for A) or B replace Jones at the plate?


2) Ilegal Substitute Jones enters for Batter A when he should have entered for batter G. Jones hits a single. Batter B get up and receives the first pitch for a ball. Coach protest illegal substitution and BOO. Should B remain at the plate or should batter H take his place since Batter H is the batter who follows G for whom Jones should have replaced. I guess I'm wondering if Jones is locked in with G or is he now locked in with A since a ball was thrown to B?


[Edited by Gre144 on Jul 17th, 2001 at 01:54 AM]

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Gre144
Maybe I am looking into this deep but it seems that in all offensive cases, except for a person who violates the courtesy runner rule, an illegal sub is someone who:

re-enters the game while BOO.

If this is not the case can you think of one situation where you have a illegal substitute who is batting in the correct order?(not including the exception for violating the rule for courtesy runners)

Yes -- a player who is not eligible to reenter and who reenters the game, even in his "correct" batting spot is an illegal sub. See 2-36 for the 5 types of "illegal subs".

This brings me to my question:

Assume A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I

1) Illegal substitute Jones enters for batter A who is the proper batter . Discovery is made while Jones is at the plate. Would A (or a legal sub for A) or B replace Jones at the plate?

Didn't we just do this? What's the penalty for an illegal sub who is at bat? If A (or a legal sub) bats next, how do we prove the scorecard? Where (in what box on the scorecard) do we record the out? B is the next batter.

2) Ilegal Substitute Jones enters for Batter A when he should have entered for batter G. Jones hits a single. Batter B get up and receives the first pitch for a ball. Coach protest illegal substitution and BOO. Should B remain at the plate or should batter H take his place since Batter H is the batter who follows G for whom Jones should have replaced. I guess I'm wondering if Jones is locked in with G or is he now locked in with A since a ball was thrown to B?

The penalty for illegal sub supercedes the penalty for BOO. I've got J in for A, out-and-out, and B remains at the plate. Had this been discovered before the pitch to B, then it's not covered in the rules. IMHO, J is still out-and-out, A needs to reenter (or be replaced), and H is the proper batter.

Now, whether Mick and Steve's comments were right depends on which of the two scenarios I presented happened.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by Gre144

So lets assume that the umpire does realize after reviewing his line up card, that F7 batted illegaly in the 2nd. He therefore would be considered an illegal sub in the 7th, correct?
[/B]

To try to answer THIS question for you, Greg, I would think that if I am calling this game, I am not going to leave this situation up to memory. I have at least 18 different ballplayers in 18 different batting slots. Now, add to that any subs in and out. For me to leave that up to memory (an illegal subbing situation not presented to me at the time of the infraction) there is too much risk of MY error. If the opposition felt there was an infraction, they should have brought it to my attention at the time the infraction occurred.

So my answer is that your question is not going to be considered by me while I am on the field. If not PROVEN that Jones reentered illegally AT THE TIME HE IS IN THE GAME ILLEGALLY, I will allow Jones to continue provided his current status is not illegal.

Just my opinion,

Freix

[Gre144]

Didn't we just do this? What's the penalty for an illegal sub who is at bat? If A (or a legal sub) bats next, how do we prove the scorecard? Where (in what box on the scorecard) do we record the out? B is the next batter.

__________________________________________________ _________
I know your getting upset but know one has answered my question on who is credited for the out. It seems to me that if Jones is credited for the out while he is at the plate than you would simply bring in the person who would have been up had Jones not appeared as a batter. This would be batter A and allowing batter A to bat would fall in line with what we would do in a normal BOO situation. If you credit A with the out then batter B would seem to be the logical person to come up to bat.

If you credit an illegal sub with the out than how do you know who is the next batter? I think you are saying that you lock him in with the person that he illegally batter for. The next batter would simply be the batter who follows the the batter that should have batted.

[Gre144]

2) Ilegal Substitute Jones enters for Batter A when he should have entered for batter G. Jones hits a single. Batter B get up and receives the first pitch for a ball. Coach protest illegal substitution and BOO. Should B remain at the plate or should batter H take his place since Batter H is the batter who follows G for whom Jones should have replaced. I guess I'm wondering if Jones is locked in with G or is he now locked in with A since a ball was thrown to B?

The penalty for illegal sub supercedes the penalty for BOO. I've got J in for A, out-and-out, and B remains at the plate. Had this been discovered before the pitch to B, then it's not covered in the rules. IMHO, J is still out-and-out, A needs to reenter (or be replaced), and H is the proper batter.

quote from Bob
__________________________________________________ ________
If a ball is thrown to B then you have J as the proper batter on first who is an illegal sub. B should then be replaced by the person who follows J which is either B( since J batter for A) or H (since H follow G for whom J should have batted for). I guess I don't know who you consider as the batter that follows J, would it be B or H?

If discovery is made while illegal Sub J is at bat, the question remains do you treat it similarly as Batting Out of Order and just allow A to replace J? (Additionally you would eject J and call him out since he is an illegal sub)Or do you allow the person who follows J to be at bat which would either be B or H depending on whether J is locked in with A for whom he illegally came to the plate for or whether he is locked in with G for whom he should have batted.

Thanks,

Totally confused,

Greg

[Edited by Gre144 on Jul 17th, 2001 at 04:06 PM]

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Gre144

The penalty for illegal sub supercedes the penalty for BOO. I've got J in for A, out-and-out, and B remains at the plate. Had this been discovered before the pitch to B, then it's not covered in the rules. IMHO, J is still out-and-out, A needs to reenter (or be replaced), and H is the proper batter.

quote from Bob
__________________________________________________ ________
If a ball is thrown to B then you have J as the proper batter on first who is an illegal sub. B should then be replaced by the person who follows J which is either B( since J batter for A) or H (since H follow G for whom J should have batted for). I guess I don't know who you consider as the batter that follows J, would it be B or H?

If discovery is made while illegal Sub J is at bat, the question remains do you treat it similarly as Batting Out of Order and just allow A to replace J? (Additionally you would eject J and call him out since he is an illegal sub)Or do you allow the person who follows J to be at bat which would either be B or H depending on whether J is locked in with A for whom he illegally came to the plate for or whether he is locked in with G for whom he should have batted.

Thanks,

Totally confused,

Greg

[Edited by Gre144 on Jul 17th, 2001 at 04:06 PM]

I know you are confused -- let the lesosn be to keep a good scorecard and not allow illegal subs into the game.

Now, on to your questions ...

If J does not start, and then goes into the game, and then comes out of the game, he is supposed to be done for the day. If he reenters for A (that was your play 1), he's an illegal sub, but he's still a sub. So, A is out of the game, and J is batting in A's spot. If he's discovered to be illegal he is out -- it's not like a BOO situation where the "penalty" is just to place the proper batter at the plate. In the box score, record an out. I'm not a scorekeeper or a statistician, so I don't care which batter is given an out or which fielder is credited with the putout. The first line-up spot has an out, and that means the second line-up spot is at bat. Now, since J was a sub for A, and J is ejected, someone else must come in to fill the first line-up spot. That can be A, if A has re-entry priveliges, or it can be another legal sub.

Let's make this as clear as I can -- If illegal J enters and bats for A (when it's A's turn at the plate), then he is out and B is the next batter.

Your second play is more confusing because you have *both* an illegal sub *and* BOO. The rule and case book doesn't cover this -- presumably because it would be a very rare occurrence. Personally, I'd enforce the "out-and-out" penalty for illegal sub, but treat the batting order as in the BOO situation. This would prevent a manager from possibly gaming the system.

So, again, J subs into the game, is removed and then illegally subs for A. Despite illegally subbing for A, he shows up to bat when it's supposed to be G's turn at the plate. B follows J (as he's supposed to) to the plate.

If this is discovered after a pitch to B, then J's turn at the plate is "legitimized" and B is the proper batter. Since J is still an illegal sub, though, J is still removed from the base, charged with an out, and ejected. A proper sub (including re-entry by A, if possible) for A must be made.

If this is discovered before a pitch to B (or even while J is at bat), then J's turn at bat is *not* "legitimized" and H will be the next batter. J, still an illegal sub, is "out-and-out." G doesn't get to bat (that's the part of the BOO we enforce), but is not also charged with an out (we can't get two outs from the same spot in the order with only one at-bat).

[Gre144]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

I know you are confused -- let the lesosn be to keep a good scorecard and not allow illegal subs into the game.

Now, on to your questions ...

If J does not start, and then goes into the game, and then comes out of the game, he is supposed to be done for the day. If he reenters

quote from Bob
__________________________________________________ ________
If a ball is thrown to B then you have J as the proper batter on first who is an illegal sub. B should then be replaced by the person who follows J which is either B( since J batter for A) or H (since H follow G for whom J should have batted for). I guess I don't know who you consider as the batter that follows J, would it be B or H?

If discovery is made while illegal Sub J is at bat, the question remains do you treat it similarly as Batting Out of Order and just allow A to replace J? (Additionally you would eject J and call him out since he is an illegal sub)Or do you allow the person who follows J to be at bat which would either be B or H depending on whether J is locked in with A for whom he illegally came to the plate for or whether he is locked in with G for whom he should have batted.

Thanks,

Totally confused,

Greg

[Edited by Gre144 on for A (that was your play 1), he's an illegal sub, but he's still a sub. So, A is out of the game, and J is batting in A's spot. If he's discovered to be illegal he is out -- it's not like a BOO situation where the "penalty" is just to place the proper batter at the plate. In the box score, record an out. I'm not a scorekeeper or a statistician, so I don't care which batter is given an out or which fielder is credited with the putout. The first line-up spot has an out, and that means the second line-up spot is at bat. Now, since J was a sub for A, and J is ejected, someone else must come in to fill the first line-up spot. That can be A, if A has re-entry priveliges, or it can be another legal sub.

Let's make this as clear as I can -- If illegal J enters and bats for A (when it's A's turn at the plate), then he is out and B is the next batter.

Your second play is more confusing because you have *both* an illegal sub *and* BOO. The rule and case book doesn't cover this -- presumably because it would be a very rare occurrence. Personally, I'd enforce the "out-and-out" penalty for illegal sub, but treat the batting order as in the BOO situation. This would prevent a manager from possibly gaming the system.

So, again, J subs into the game, is removed and then illegally subs for A. Despite illegally subbing for A, he shows up to bat when it's supposed to be G's turn at the plate. B follows J (as he's supposed to) to the plate.

If this is discovered after a pitch to B, then J's turn at the plate is "legitimized" and B is the proper batter. Since J is still an illegal sub, though, J is still removed from the base, charged with an out, and ejected. A proper sub (including re-entry by A, if possible) for A must be made.

If this is discovered before a pitch to B (or even while J is at bat), then J's turn at bat is *not* "legitimized" and H will be the next batter. J, still an illegal sub, is "out-and-out." G doesn't get to bat (that's the part of the BOO we enforce), but is not also charged with an out (we can't get two outs from the same spot in the order with only one at-bat).

Hey, you should should start charging for you time! I understand completely now. What really helped me is how you emphasized that the "line up spot is credited with the out". Once you have figured out which line up spot is legitimate than the puzzle is solved-the next batter will be the batter who follows the proper legalized spot. It is perfectly clear in my head now. Thanks for all your help!

Greg