The AMLU's Birmingham Folly

[GarthB]

[QUOTE=BlueLawyer]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Okay, just in the interest of facts: According to PBUC, AAA minor league umpires make Class AAA: $2,500-3,400 per month for five month season. That would equal $12,500 to $17,000 per season, not per year.

Also, again, according to PBUC, "Salaries may vary from the above ranges due to service time or other special circumstances. Umpires receive a promotion premium in the form of increased pay when promoted to Class AA, and another promotion premium when promoted to Class AAA." This means that some AAA umpires make more than the $17,000 listed above, for a five month season.

$3,400 per month is more than many school teachers make.

QUOTE]

School teachers are underpaid, too. The fact that they are underpaid does not justify underpaying umpires.

The press has been reporting $15k as the pay for a AAA umpire. This is the figure a friend of mine in AAA confirms. Maybe PBUC should get out in front and tell people exactly how generous- oh wait a minute . . . then they'd have to talk about the entire embarrasing pay scale.

Who "forces" them to work minor league ball? Nobody. Who "forces" baseball to use umpires? When I was a kid, we played many a game of sandlot ball with no umpire. Does MiLB need umpires? Or can we just send the teams out there night after night and have them call their own? Honor system, fellas. The next time you go to ask for a raise from your boss, ask yourself who forces you to work there.

The one thing we haven't been talking about is the upward and downward pressure a longterm strike is likely to put on other levels of baseball. It will put upward pressure on the Majors, because if MiLB fires or "replaces" on a permanent basis all of the AMLU umps, the Majors will have no new umpires ready in the long term to replace retiring umps. In the short term, anybody they bring up as replacements during the season for vacationing or injured umpires will be (a) untrained and probably unqualified and (b) if scabs, likely to get exactly the same reception scabs got in the 1979 season of big league ball. It has already put downward pressure on college and high school umpires. I don't know about everybody else in the country. Here in Arkansas, we don't have enough umpires, period, let alone enough good umpires. When MiLB mines our top guys to come work AA games, the rest of our schedule pays the price by having umps work games they are probably not ready to work.

Strikes and outs!

Why is it my posts are edited in the replies and then responded to in such a way that makes it appear that I am opposed to the MiLB demands? Why is it that my statements: "I certainly support raises for minor league umpires. They deserve them. I support raises for school teachers, too. They also deserve them. I have no quibble with the ends. I continue to believe the umpires were misled about the means." never appear in replies and are ignored? Why is it some posters need to paint this issue as either one is "for" or "against" the MiLB umpires?

Must we agree 100% with union leadership and march in lockstop to be regarded as supportive of the members? is there no room for difference of opinon within the union? If so, the recent 2-1 vote against what the leadership called a good deal must represent heresy.

I have several friends in the MiLB. My son is working hard to join them. I understand their plight and I believe they are deserving of what they are asking for. But I have the right to also believe their leadership could be better.

[BlueLawyer]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Why is it my posts are edited in the replies and then responded to in such a way that makes it appear that I am opposed to the MiLB demands? Why is it that my statements: "I certainly support raises for minor league umpires. They deserve them. I support raises for school teachers, too. They also deserve them. I have no quibble with the ends. I continue to believe the umpires were misled about the means." never appear in replies and are ignored? Why is it some posters need to paint this issue as either one is "for" or "against" the MiLB umpires?

Must we agree 100% with union leadership and march in lockstop to be regarded as supportive of the members? is there no room for difference of opinon within the union? If so, the recent 2-1 vote against what the leadership called a good deal must represent heresy.

I have several friends in the MiLB. My son is working hard to join them. I understand their plight and I believe they are deserving of what they are asking for. But I have the right to also believe their leadership could be better.

Garth:

I do not think you have to agree or disagree totally with the union. And I will tell you and agree with you that the union has made mistakes. Many of those mistakes are documented on this website. We share common ground there. But the other side is just as irrational, vis the post immediately following yours. Fact: MiLB/PBUC did not negotiate all winter- their last response, in October of '05, was "$100 per month raise and $1 more per diem. Take it or leave it." AMLU tried, according to those I know, to negotiate and were ignored until they voted to strike. Did AMLU wait too long? You bet. Did their leadership underestimate the resolve of PBUC? You bet. Did the AMLU leadership make numerous other tactical/strategic errors? Yep. We agree.

Just:

Thanks for making my point for me. Minimum wage workers do strike, all the time- they quit. Ask anybody in the fast food/custodial/other traditionally minimum wage fields (or study Department of Labor stats) how long the average worker lasts in that field. Then, of course, you ignore the fact that the professional umpire-to-be is considerably more skilled than the average minimum wage worker, and has invested much more of himself/herself in terms of personal finances and opportunity costs than the same minimum wage Joe or Jane. They are in it for a shot at Major League glory, sure. But why should we endorse penalizing most of them at poverty-level (or slightly above) wages for that vanity? Should MiLB umpires ignore the fact that most of us who work even mid-level amatuer ball make as much or more than they do? Should MiLB umpires not be allowed to say "A lower-middle class, close to living wage is all I want while I try to make it to the big time"?

Does Major League Baseball want the annual fruitbasket turnover in the minors that Just apparently says is JUST fine with him? Does anybody, even you, Just, think that firing an entire class of MiLB umpires is good for the game? Do you really think that those non-AMLU guys who get a contract this year have a shot at the Majors? Do you really think they will get renewed once either a new class of Wendelstedt/Evans guys comes through or PBUC and AMLU finally get it right? If you do, you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree.

Just, does the fact that more people are apparently waiting in the wings to be underpaid by PBUC make it ok for them to underpay AMLU?

Strikes and outs!

[Justme]

Originally Posted by BlueLawyer

Thanks for making my point for me. Minimum wage workers do strike, all the time- they quit. Ask anybody in the fast food/custodial/other traditionally minimum wage fields (or study Department of Labor stats) how long the average worker lasts in that field. Then, of course, you ignore the fact that the professional umpire-to-be is considerably more skilled than the average minimum wage worker, and has invested much more of himself/herself in terms of personal finances and opportunity costs than the same minimum wage Joe or Jane. They are in it for a shot at Major League glory, sure. But why should we endorse penalizing most of them at poverty-level (or slightly above) wages for that vanity? Should MiLB umpires ignore the fact that most of us who work even mid-level amatuer ball make as much or more than they do? Should MiLB umpires not be allowed to say "A lower-middle class, close to living wage is all I want while I try to make it to the big time"?

I made your point? No, like you said "They quit" and maybe that's what the MiLB umpires should do if they can't handle how things are done. Or have they already quit? So you say strike = quit?

As I have said many times, I think that a person has the right to earn as much as they can. But I have little compassion, wait make that no compassion, for a man (or woman) who willingly takes a position that they know pays low wages then complains about it. If you can't handle the low pay while you're learning your trade then don't take the job. It's like a doctor. They go to school for what 20 years (or more). Then they graduate from medical school and are now doctors but they still have to go through a resident program. While they are in this program (4, 6 or more years) they are doing doctors work but for MUCH less money. They work long and very hard hours. Is that fair? Maybe not, but that's the way it is.

Dispite what you and others may think being a MiLB umpire does not rank up there with things like teachers, doctors, nurses, police, military and other positions that really count and make a difference in peoples lives. They can and will be easily replaced...what they do is not rocket science.

[BlueLawyer]

Originally Posted by Justme

Dispite what you and others may think being a MiLB umpire does not rank up there with things like teachers, doctors, nurses, police, military and other positions that really count and make a difference in peoples lives. They can and will be easily replaced...what they do is not rocket science.

Since you didn't ask me what I think, I'll explain it to you.

No, being an umpire does not rank up there with the professions you listed (the only one of which, by the way, that I can tell gets paid what is worth is a doctor).

Your statement that it is "not rocket science" is true but incomplete. I am amazed that anyone who officiates baseball would make that kind of statment. It's not turning burgers, either. Have you ever umpired a baseball game before? That is not meant to be flip- if anybody could do it, anybody would. Tell me you have never been on the field with some jackass fan behind you yelling about your strike zone or your lack of rules knowledge and you thought to yourself, "If it's so easy, smart guy, get out here and do it."

This is my opinion and it is worth what you are about to pay for it. I have umpired baseball and refereed basketball. Basketball is naturally more physically demanding, but in terms of judgment, rules knowledge and situations, there is nothing harder to officiate than baseball. You are expected to get the routine right 100% of the time, react to the arcane and weird correctly, and at the same time listen to grown men behave like little boys and little boys sometimes try to behave like grown men- while all the time avoiding throwing them out until there is no other option.

It amazes me constantly that we send guys who make $15k a year out to the ballpark to "control" minor league guys (who by the way, all want the same thing the umpires want- to get to the Majors), some of whom are 20-year-old millionares.

There is some justification in the idea that they knew what they were getting into. Does that mean that once they are in, they have no right to try to make things better? There is more justification in the idea that it is time to make it something close to right for themselves and future umpires.

Strikes and outs!

[Justme]

Originally Posted by BlueLawyer

Since you didn't ask me what I think, I'll explain it to you.

No, being an umpire does not rank up there with the professions you listed (the only one of which, by the way, that I can tell gets paid what is worth is a doctor).

Your statement that it is "not rocket science" is true but incomplete. I am amazed that anyone who officiates baseball would make that kind of statment. It's not turning burgers, either. Have you ever umpired a baseball game before? That is not meant to be flip- if anybody could do it, anybody would. Tell me you have never been on the field with some jackass fan behind you yelling about your strike zone or your lack of rules knowledge and you thought to yourself, "If it's so easy, smart guy, get out here and do it."

This is my opinion and it is worth what you are about to pay for it. I have umpired baseball and refereed basketball. Basketball is naturally more physically demanding, but in terms of judgment, rules knowledge and situations, there is nothing harder to officiate than baseball. You are expected to get the routine right 100% of the time, react to the arcane and weird correctly, and at the same time listen to grown men behave like little boys and little boys sometimes try to behave like grown men- while all the time avoiding throwing them out until there is no other option.

It amazes me constantly that we send guys who make $15k a year out to the ballpark to "control" minor league guys (who by the way, all want the same thing the umpires want- to get to the Majors), some of whom are 20-year-old millionares.

There is some justification in the idea that they knew what they were getting into. Does that mean that once they are in, they have no right to try to make things better? There is more justification in the idea that it is time to make it something close to right for themselves and future umpires.

Strikes and outs!

I have umpired baseball/football for more than 20 years. I never intended for either one to be more than what they are today, a hobby! I chose to spend my time building a career outside of baseball/football. My career path took me to college for a degree in engineering and in business (MBA). Ending in the long and difficult road of building a successful business.

Just because a kid has the talent to earn millions playing the game doesn't mean that the MiLB umpires automatically have the right to make hundreds of thousands of dollars. The fans come out to see the players....and most don't give two-cents about the umpires...no comparison to their value can be made.

Finally, I hope that the MiLB umpires convince MiLB that they are worth whatever they want to earn. I doubt that it will happen but if it does I'll still go watch the games no matter how much the ticket cost increases to pay their salaries

[BlueLawyer]

Originally Posted by Justme

I have umpired baseball/football for more than 20 years. I never intended for either one to be more than what they are today, a hobby! I chose to spend my time building a career outside of baseball/football. My career path took me to college for a degree in engineering and in business (MBA). Ending in the long and difficult road of building a successful business.

I'm proud of you. You no doubt, control to a large extent what you earn. Not so for the minor league ump.

Finally, I hope that the MiLB umpires convince MiLB that they are worth whatever they want to earn. I doubt that it will happen but if it does I'll still go watch the games no matter how much the ticket cost increases to pay their salaries

What the hell did you do with Just? Get off his computer!

Strikes and outs!

[Justme]

Originally Posted by BlueLawyer

What the hell did you do with Just? Get off his computer!

Strikes and outs!

I must have had a compassionate (weak) moment.....don't let my competitors know


BlueLawyer:

My statement was not disparaging to the whole profession of umpiring. It was a statement of fact! Look, if you want to give great importance to the profession of umpiring MiLB then by all means have at it. I believe that in comparison to some of the more highly technical professions umpiring just isn't on the same scale.

Now here's a totally absurd comparison for you.... Take a skilled surgeon and give him, let's say, 2 weeks umpiring training and then put them on the field to call a game. Then lets take a skilled umpire (from MLB), train him for two weeks to perform a heart bypass and then put them in the 'sterile' field of the OR. How do you think things would turn out? My bet is that the baseball game would survive better than the heart bypass patient. See, I told you it was absurd.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BlueLawyer

Since you didn't ask me what I think, I'll explain it to you.

No, being an umpire does not rank up there with the professions you listed (the only one of which, by the way, that I can tell gets paid what is worth is a doctor).

Your statement that it is "not rocket science" is true but incomplete. I am amazed that anyone who officiates baseball would make that kind of statment. It's not turning burgers, either. Have you ever umpired a baseball game before? That is not meant to be flip- if anybody could do it, anybody would. Tell me you have never been on the field with some jackass fan behind you yelling about your strike zone or your lack of rules knowledge and you thought to yourself, "If it's so easy, smart guy, get out here and do it."

I think at some point we need to stop comparing one type of job to another. You cannot compare a professional umpire to a teacher. Hell we cannot even compare a college professor to an elementary school teacher with each other and pay structures and issues related to those levels. This issue is about what MiLB can play and what they are not willing to pay. This is a system that is supposed to train umpires to one day work at the Majors. I do not think anyone wants a bunch of guys that only experience is working a local league and one or two teams in a very small area. The union guys have made a commitment to work this level and to take a chance on maybe getting a shot at the "show." These replacement umpires will likely never be considered for anything but working games in place of union members. You see they did not just call up anyone to cover the MLB Umpires when those guys went on vacation. They hired guys that have training and years of pro ball experience.

Originally Posted by BlueLawyer

This is my opinion and it is worth what you are about to pay for it. I have umpired baseball and refereed basketball. Basketball is naturally more physically demanding, but in terms of judgment, rules knowledge and situations, there is nothing harder to officiate than baseball. You are expected to get the routine right 100% of the time, react to the arcane and weird correctly, and at the same time listen to grown men behave like little boys and little boys sometimes try to behave like grown men- while all the time avoiding throwing them out until there is no other option.

I can have a game off working baseball. I cannot have a game off working a basketball game. And part of what makes basketball hard is the fact you have to hustle to get into position all the time. You do not have to work that hard to get into position working a baseball game. Even in a two man game during baseball, all I have to do is take a couple of steps and I can see the play clearly. Also in basketball I do not know of any kind of play being called "routine." Players in baseball can make us look great if they make plays or very bad if they do not make plays. As a baseball umpire I do not control the pace of the game or the style of play nearly the same way a basketball official does when working a regular game. Also this is irrelevant to this discussion of what the union should get. Basketball officials at the same level can make more money in a shorter period of time than the current Minor League system for working 5 months.

Peace

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Originally Posted by J.Rutledge

These replacement umpires will likely never be considered for anything but working games in place of union members. You see they did not just call up anyone to cover the MLB Umpires when those guys went on vacation. They hired guys that have training and years of pro ball experience.

Does anyone else want to point out that when the MLB umpires went out on strike, a couple of replacements were hired to work the Show? If I point it out it will be "WWTB is picking on me again."

[BlueLawyer]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think at some point we need to stop comparing one type of job to another. You cannot compare a professional umpire to a teacher. Hell we cannot even compare a college professor to an elementary school teacher with each other and pay structures and issues related to those levels. This issue is about what MiLB can play and what they are not willing to pay. This is a system that is supposed to train umpires to one day work at the Majors. I do not think anyone wants a bunch of guys that only experience is working a local league and one or two teams in a very small area. The union guys have made a commitment to work this level and to take a chance on maybe getting a shot at the "show." These replacement umpires will likely never be considered for anything but working games in place of union members. You see they did not just call up anyone to cover the MLB Umpires when those guys went on vacation. They hired guys that have training and years of pro ball experience.



I can have a game off working baseball. I cannot have a game off working a basketball game. And part of what makes basketball hard is the fact you have to hustle to get into position all the time. You do not have to work that hard to get into position working a baseball game. Even in a two man game during baseball, all I have to do is take a couple of steps and I can see the play clearly. Also in basketball I do not know of any kind of play being called "routine." Players in baseball can make us look great if they make plays or very bad if they do not make plays. As a baseball umpire I do not control the pace of the game or the style of play nearly the same way a basketball official does when working a regular game. Also this is irrelevant to this discussion of what the union should get. Basketball officials at the same level can make more money in a shorter period of time than the current Minor League system for working 5 months.

Peace

I agree with almost everything you said, Rut . . . but-

Tell me that baseball is not more rules intensive than basketball, and I will disagree respectfully with you. The fact that baseball has a whole lot of standing around is precisely what makes it so hard to officiate. It's very hard , at least for me, to keep concentration up for 120 minutes of nothing special only to have a game-deciding, n*t cutting call at first in the bottom of the ninth. Have an off game in baseball, and you MIGHT be able to hide it. But if you are having an off game and the one "o-my-deity" call comes to you, you will be exposed.

And the point I was making in response to Just, who said it's "not rocket science." He was, in my judgment, disparaging the whole profession. Yes, for me, it's part time, but it is a profession. I don't know if he is a true demigod of baseball umpiring or just has a patholgical animosity toward AMLU. I don't care. They are professional, work hard and deserve better than to be treated the way PBUC is treating them.

Strikes and outs!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BlueLawyer

Tell me that baseball is not more rules intensive than basketball, and I will disagree respectfully with you.

Have you ever worked a college basketball game? Have you ever worked a game under NBA rules? If you had you might change your mind. To me it is not about how hard the rules. Learning the rules comes with time and experience on the field and court. It is about the amount of decisions you have to make when you blow the whistle and not blow the whistle. I can eliminate an entire section of the game of baseball or rules by just knowing the situation with how many runners are on base and just following the ball. You cannot do that in a basketball game.

Originally Posted by BlueLawyer

The fact that baseball has a whole lot of standing around is precisely what makes it so hard to officiate. It's very hard , at least for me, to keep concentration up for 120 minutes of nothing special only to have a game-deciding, n*t cutting call at first in the bottom of the ninth. Have an off game in baseball, and you MIGHT be able to hide it. But if you are having an off game and the one "o-my-deity" call comes to you, you will be exposed.

Well the fact that I am standing is easy for me. I agree it can be hard to concentrate, but that is not that hard in my opinion. Also in basketball it is not a lot can happen in a very short period of time. You have to be on top of everything where in baseball nothing will be taking place for many minutes. For me working a baseball (especially on the bases) is a piece of cake. Also when I have talked to other officials that work multiple sports, not many put baseball as the hardest sport. I have been working football, basketball and baseball for the same amount of time. Baseball for me is by far the easiest and has been the easiest to move up and achieve in. Out of the 3 I did baseball last and I was surprised how easy it was to do and understand from the very beginning. I just read a couple of books and I had a very good understanding of what I need to do as an umpire. I have since changed some things like plate stances and some philosophies, but these are things that never were extremely difficult to understand and grasp.

Originally Posted by BlueLawyer

And the point I was making in response to Just, who said it's "not rocket science." He was, in my judgment, disparaging the whole profession. Yes, for me, it's part time, but it is a profession. I don't know if he is a true demigod of baseball umpiring or just has a patholgical animosity toward AMLU. I don't care. They are professional, work hard and deserve better than to be treated the way PBUC is treating them.

We need to put this in perspective. Umpiring or any officiating is not rocket science. Not everyone can umpire/officiate effectively or very well either. But to make it seem like you need the same level of training to become a teacher or many other professions is not accurate either. Just look at most that decide to work at the pro level. Umpires do not have the same level of education or the same years of training to get to that point. Also that does not mean anyone can role out of bed and umpire at any level by any means. It also does not take a vast education to become a good ball player. It was a lot harder to get my college degree than it ever has been to become a successful umpire or official. All of this is a completely separate issue to what the union is doing and why they are striking. How hard it is to umpire and why the union wants to be paid more are not even in the same ballpark if you ask me. If anything we need to stop comparing our “day jobs” to this situation. They have nothing to do with each other and even the why people decide to umpire pro ball has nothing to do with how they come to a similar conclusion to work in other professions. These comparisons are just silly if you ask me and I can tell you that if you were required to travel at the same rate, most would be compensated enough to cover those expenses. This is an industry issue, not an issue for all unions and all pay scales across the economic board.

Peace

[socalblue1]

Garth,

Whenever a mediator approves a deal the union leadership must endorse it to the members & send it to a vote. It's just the way the system works.

All MiLB needs to do is approve a small pay raise & livable per-diem. The AMLU understands they are never going to be paid according to their true value. IMO the #1 issue is not having sufficient per-diem & having to pull from a salary 10+ years behind just to meet basic living expenses.

The pressure is really starting to mount against MiLB from the farm directors & MLB. Will it help - who knows? My view of the situation is that MilB is going to try & hold firm.

At some point either MLB is going to mandate they settle or will pony up the $$ to make it happen (Which I think is really what MiLB is holding out for. Why pay when they think someone else will).

It's similar to the MLB mandate a few years ago. Improve the ballparks or we will stop funding you and start our own teams. Amazing what happens when you tell someone fix it or we take away the $$$.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by socalblue1

Garth,

Whenever a mediator approves a deal the union leadership must endorse it to the members & send it to a vote. It's just the way the system works.

Having belonged to the musicians union, a peace officers union, a union for emergency workers (emergency dispatch) and the teachers union, and having been a shop steward twice, I am familiar with the process.

They had to forward it to their membership for a vote. They did not, as the AMLU leadership did, have to issue a release saying how happy they were with the deal and now that they have workable agreement they look forward to getting the members back on the field. They could have, as most unions involve with mediation do, simply said, "This is the result of the recent mediation and we are forwarding to our membership for a vote."