Question on Awards with Tagging up

[UMP25]

All right, children. Enough is enough. Let's cut the immature crap. Leave the childish name-calling and insults to the players. Personally, I'm getting sick of reading this.

Umpires should be above this.

[UMP25]

This is the frickin' Internet, Steve; and BTW, I've had plenty of lies told about me in cyberspace. I just ignore them. They're not worth my time, no matter how despicable they are.

With all due respect, Steve, this thread isn't about the little pissing contest between you and PWL. Perhaps you can take it elsewhere.

[SanDiegoSteve]

With all due respect, UMP25, we all tried to help PWL learn something, to which he turned it into a personal attack. I do not start personal attacks, but I don't shy away from conflicts which others start.

I want people out here in "cyberspace" to know when someone is telling lies about me.

As far as this thread goes, it has apparently outlived its usefullness. The question has been answered, even though certain people still may not understand it.

[mcrowder]

Steve, don't feed the troll.

[TussAgee11]

So we are saying that in FED the player gets awards based off the TOP? That can't be right. A double to the outfield, runner on first, outfielder throws the ball in and it goes out of play, and I'm giving that runner on first 3rd even though he may have been between 2nd and 3rd at the time of the throw?

Then we look at some other rule books, and we can agree that in the above situation he gets home?

Sounds like just another difference of rulebooks to me.

And guys, take this pissing contest elsewhere. This thread and forum is to valuable for that stuff. Thanks.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by PWL

Hey Randy,

Do you have anything with FED in the case for which we are talking about.

What they have added into it and the ruling Bob Jenkins gave was award 3B and then defense make the proper appeal. This is just the way I have always believed FED to be.

Sorry, I can't post on anything without those two trying to do a bait and switch.

I don't have the NFHS book handy, so I'll defer to someone who does at the moment, like Bob J. mentioned earlier. NCAA and OBR I tend to know like the back of my hand, so it's easier to explain this play under those rules. Plus, NCAA and OBR are the same on most of their rules, whereas NFHS is different, to say the least.

This morning alone, I heard from two FED umps who gave me radically different answers to what the ruling would be under NFHS. One of these gentlemen is an assignor, but his answer seems way off.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by UMP25

I don't have the NFHS book handy, so I'll defer to someone who does at the moment, like Bob J. mentioned earlier. NCAA and OBR I tend to know like the back of my hand, so it's easier to explain this play under those rules. Plus, NCAA and OBR are the same on most of their rules, whereas NFHS is different, to say the least.

This morning alone, I heard from two FED umps who gave me radically different answers to what the ruling would be under NFHS. One of these gentlemen is an assignor, but his answer seems way off.

It's the same. 2 bases from the position of the runners at the Time Of The Throw. There is no mention of "legally attained bases" or any such wording in any code of rules concerning a ball being thrown out of play. The runner, having acquired 2nd base at the Time Of The Throw, is awarded home base. It is his responsibility to retouch any missed base(s). If he does not retouch, he may be called out upon proper appeal. This is a recording......

[midtnblu]

EDIT---PWL, this was supposed to go before yours...

but....a runner cannot return to a base to re-touch if he has already reached a succeeding base at the time the ball went dead... Fed 5.2.2.b & 8.2.5

And fed casebook 8.2.5 Sitch A
R1 on first, no outs, B2 hits long fly ball over head of F8. R1 thinks it will fall in for a hit and attempts to advance to third. However F8 makes the catch. F8 throws to first but the ball goes into DBT. R1, who is attempting to return to first base, is between second and third when the ball goes dead.

RULING : A runner may not return to a base that he left too soon on a caught fly ball if he was on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead, or if he advances and touches a succeeding base after the ball went dead. Upon proper appeal, R1 shall be called out, If no proper appeal, is made by the defense, R1 will be awarded third base.

What confuses me is...and hopefully others....

If no appeal, why give him only third if he had reached second (legally or illegally) at TIME OF THROW.

It would make more sense if we had either OUT on appeal or HOME on award.

And what is the proper mechanic for denying a runner to return to a base after the ball has gone dead?

"Hey buddy, I know you left early but you can't go back now. I'm awarding you this base, but if they appeal, you're OUT."

[SanDiegoSteve]

Yes, my mistake. Once the runner touched 2nd base, it is too late for him to retouch 1st. He is awarded home, and is subject to being called out on appeal. So he is better off not trying to return and just keep going home and hope the defense didn't see the missed base. FED 8-2-5 and OBR 7.10 (b) (2) and interpretation Play (a).

The award is still 2 bases from his position, which was 2nd base.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

Read 8-3-5-b.

When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch.

Thus a two base award would be third base.

This is on a batted ball which has been caught. This is not the same as the runner missing the base when advancing. The award is from his position at the time of the throw.

[UmpJM]

Gentlemen,

An interesting discussion (other than all the "noise"). I believe there are (at least) two schools of thought on the proper ruling in regards to the original situation posed in this thread - and that's just under OBR. FED adds its own unique twist to the situation.

Since, in the original situation posed by TussAgee11, the throw which went out of play was made by an outfielder on a ball hit to the outfield, it is "black letter law" (in both FED and OBR) that the award of two bases is a "Time of Throw" (TOT) award.

So, why on earth did I say...

The award in this case is two bases from his "original" or TOP base - so, you award him 3B.

in my initial post on this thread?

Well, primarily because of the following passage from J/R under the discussion of TOT Award(s) (my emphasis):

If a runner obviously has failed to retouch his base before advancing, then a base he has touched or passed is not acknowledged when determining the bases awarded after an overthrow. Hence, such runner's occupied base (from which the award would originate) is the time-of-pitch (or retouch) base (see example 9 below).

...

9----- R1, one out, hit and run. The stealing runner, believing there are two outs, continues toward third base after a fly ball is batted to right field. The right fielder catches the ball, but his throw to first gets by and rolls into a dugout: even though R1 is past second at TOT, first base is acknowledged at the occupied base at TOT, and R1 is awarded third base.

Now, this interpretation from J/R seems quite consistent with the NAPBL ruling paraphrased by Bob Jenkins (post #35 on this thread) while it is materially different from the MLBUM ruling quoted by UMP25 (post #42).

So what is the proper ruling? In the BRD, Carl endorses the J/R ruling and recommends "disavowal" of the MLBUM ruling. He goes on to add the following note:

Note 436: I checked with several of my acquaintances, including two professional umpires. Not one had ever heard of any umpire enforcing the above (MLBUM) interpretation. One pro said he'd never even heard of the interpretation -- but he spoke on condition of anonymity. (grin)

This makes eminent sense to me. After all, even under the MLBUM ruling, if the runner does go back and retouch his base, the origin of the award magically becomes his "original" or TOP base. If he doesn't, he's going to be liable to an appeal. If he fails to retouch and the defense doesn't appeal, they really ought to learn the game a little better.

Now, if the infraction is not "obvious", the MLBUM ruling makes sense to me.

A couple of other points that came up in the discussion...

I believe TussAgee11's initial question was whether or not the runner's "retouch" base counted as one of the two bases awarded. It does not & I'm pretty sure he figured that out.

It was suggested that the origin of the award was based on the last legally acquired base. There is nothing to support such a notion in the rules or any recognized interpretation manual; there is quite a bit to support the principle that a runner who has reached/passed a base is considered to have acquired it legally until/unless the defense properly appeals.

The question was raised as to whether the defense would lose their chance for a subsequent appeal if the throw which went out of play was construed to be part of an unmistakeable but ill-fated attempt at a continuous action appeal of the runner's failure to retouch. After all, they attempted an appeal and "erred" by throwing the ball out of play. They have not and will still have the opportunity to appeal (assuming the runner does not correct his infraction while the ball is dead) when the ball is again made live.

The FED ruling on the play is materially different from the OBR ruling in the situation where the runner liable for appeal on his failure to retouch has reached/passed a succeeding base and is unable to return past that base before the ball becomes dead. In FED, the runner cannot correct his failure to retouch in this case and is liable to be called out on appeal even if he goes back and retouches while the ball is dead.

Unless the umpire judges that the fielder intentionally threw the ball out of play in order to prevent the runner from retouching and the runner was attempting to return. Then his award is two bases beyond his TOP base.

JM

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I couldn't find this covered anywhere, so I can only assume, but I want to KNOW!

Man on 1st, less than 2 outs. Fly ball to the outfielder, caught. He throws behind R1 to try to double him off. The throw goes into dead ball territory. 2 base award.

Now, do you grant R1 a retouch at 1st as his first base and then award second? Or do you award straight to third and leave it up to him to retouch, for free. Casebook/rules references (couldn't find anything in rules) would be perferred if you have them (I don't own anything but this year's casebook, as I am a new umpire).

Thanks.

Somehow I was under the false impression, due to the runner passing 2nd base I believe, that this was not a caught ball. This whole time I have been arguing about an advancing runner on an uncaught ball thrown out of play.

Now that I read the original situation properly, the award should be 2 bases from the time of the pitch. 8-3-5b and 5-1-1g(3).

The runner, seeing that the ball was caught, can then retreat, retouch 2nd base and then go retouch 1st, as long as he touches 2nd before the ball goes out of play. Once the ball is dead, he can no longer touch 2nd before returning to first. Chances are most runners will have retouched 2nd long before the ball goes out of play.

PWL, you get one free kick in my butt. Take dead aim.

[jxt127]

Not quite.

If the runner is between 2nd and 3rd at the time the ball ends up in DBT he can return to 1st to correct his leaving early error as long as he does not advance to and touch 3rd base after the ball is dead.

And it's two bases from the time of the throw. Given that the ball is a caught fly this is usually going to be the same as TOP.

[SAump]

The original thread discussed a CAUGHT FLY BALL. Any ballplayer (8 years or older) knows that a baserunner must (return and) RETOUCH after a caught fly ball. That means most teams will throw the ball back to first base and appeal the obvious infraction. Sometimes, fielders may try to make a tag play on the runner at or between bases.

If baserunner is caught between 2nd and 3rd when the ball enters DBT, what is he suppose to do; advance to third, stop at second or continue to first? If he stops at second or advances to third, then he might as well be hung out to dry on a CFB. He better get back to first and he better hope that the defense ignores his position between 2nd and 3rd when the ball entered DBT. Once he reaches first, he would be out on immediate appeal (past 2nd base) or he would be awarded TWO bases if no appeal is made. That TWO base award should clue the defense to appeal the obvious before the NEXT pitch.

Its one thing not to appeal a missed base; but its another thing to ignore a CAUGHT FLY BALL. A CFB retouch beats a DBT award everytime. Why would I award HOME team home on a ball that enters DBT afterward,do I ignore the CATCH too?

[SAump]

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"Baby, I'm gonna sine yo' pitty on the runny kine!....Pootie Tang "
What does that mean?
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"PWL, you get one free kick in my butt. Take dead aim."
Doesn't sound any better than Pootie Tang.
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Somehow I may be under the false impression, too. Can you help get it off me?