Question on Awards with Tagging up

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by PWL

He get two bases from the time of the throw from his last LEGALLY obtained base. He had not LEGALLY obtained second. Therefore, the runner must return LEGALLY to tag first. Thus, his LEGAL base at the time of throw was first base.

I guess I should have said if the defense attempts a play before they appeal for that eagle eye of yours.

Instead of just saying this is flat wrong, I'll ask this:

R1 leaves first base just a hair early on a fly ball to DEEP RF. F9 throws to F8. After R1 rounds 2nd base, F8 uncorks the ball over the fence, A) over third base, or B) over 1st base. What do you award? Consider that at this point you may or may not know that the defense plans on appealing at first base.

[Durham]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

The confusion would be whether or not giving the two base award from first base would tip the defense off that they have an appeal. We all know he would be out on appeal if he fails to re-touch, but what if the defense doesn't appeal? He's considered to have obtained his advance base as soon as he reaches it until properly appealed.


Tim.

But isn't the action of the outfielder throwing behind R1 in an attempt to double him off let us know that the defense is fully aware that the appeal is on. Furthermore, would you allow a second appeal at the same base on the same runner if the defense err's in its initial appeal attempt?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Durham

But isn't the action of the outfielder throwing behind R1 in an attempt to double him off let us know that the defense is fully aware that the appeal is on. Furthermore, would you allow a second appeal at the same base on the same runner if the defense err's in its initial appeal attempt?

Durham, the point is really that it doesn't matter if the defense is, or isn't, aware of a possible appeal. It's two bases from the last base (2nd base in this case) obtained by the runner.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

To extend this, if the runner on 1st had passed SECOND base when this ball was uncorked toward first, and then into DBT, the runner gets HOME (and it's up to him to know he has to go retouch). Two bases from TIME OF THROW.

My response was in line with Mike's. I would say that just because they threw behind the runner they have yet to make an unmistakeable appeal. So, if R1 had reached or had passed second base before TOT. I would award home and wait for a proper appeal. He has legally obtained second until properly appealed. I see your point that this could have been considered an erred appeal though which would disallow a second appeal.


Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

He get two bases from the time of the throw from his last LEGALLY obtained base. He had not LEGALLY obtained second. Therefore, the runner must return LEGALLY to tag first. Thus, his LEGAL base at the time of throw was first base.

I guess I should have said if the defense attempts a play before they appeal for that eagle eye of yours.

It's okay mccrowder, I'll say it:

PWL, YOU ARE FLAT-OUT WRONG!

The award is from the bases occupied at the time of the wild throw, which was second base. The rule - 7.05(g) - makes no mention of legally or illegally obtained bases. Same with FED, rule 8-3-3c. Nothing requiring legally obtaining a base is remotely mentioned.

Please don't make up rules that don't exist.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by PWL

The base he last legally occupied was first. Two bases from there. How can the runner occupy second when he has to retreat to first to tag the base. He doesn't legally occupy second. So why award the runner home? Happy now.

And what rule is that?

Lets say he just stands on second, and the defense never appeals. Does he still not legally occupy second. His position is legally his until appealed.

If there is a casebook or rule against this please post PWL. For me common sense in this situation told be one of his rewards was a retouch at 1st. But I inquired about the rule and was told my common sense was wrong by rule. Perhaps yours is too.

[mcrowder]

PWL, I see you completely ignored my question. Because you couldn't possibly have an answer that is consistent with your incorrect ruling and still makes sense.

The book makes no mention of the umpire's need to determine whether bases were attained legally or illegally, nor does it mention the need to "erase" part of a base award if a retouch is required.

This has come up in clinics before and unanimously the answer is that the player is simply (simple because it says nearly exactly this in the book) awarded 2 bases from WHERE HE IS at the time of the throw.

Let's give it another hypothetical that illustrates your solution as wrong. R1 starts on first, tags legally, passes 2nd base, coach is then yelling BACK BACK, so he returns, missing 2nd, but is between 1st and 2nd when F9 throws the ball out of play. The last "legally acquired base" in your vernacular (not to be found in a rulebook), is SECOND base - but he's between 1st and 2nd at TOT. The proper award is 3rd base. You would award home by your logic. Clearly this is also wrong.

[midtnblu]

Case Book 8.2.5

Ruling: A runner may not return to a base left too soon on a caught fly ball if he was on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead. Upon proper appeal, R1 shall be called out. If no appeal is made, R1 will be awarded 3B.


If R1 was headed back and was between 1B and 2B, the return is allowed and the award is 3B.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by midtnblu

Case Book 8.2.5

Ruling: A runner may not return to a base left too soon on a caught fly ball if he was on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead. Upon proper appeal, R1 shall be called out. If no appeal is made, R1 will be awarded 3B.


If R1 was headed back and was between 1B and 2B, the return is allowed and the award is 3B.

Beautiful work. Thanks.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by midtnblu

Case Book 8.2.5

Ruling: A runner may not return to a base left too soon on a caught fly ball if he was on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead. Upon proper appeal, R1 shall be called out. If no appeal is made, R1 will be awarded 3B.


If R1 was headed back and was between 1B and 2B, the return is allowed and the award is 3B.

Also, NAPBL 3.11 Play 2: (paraphrased) R1, Leaves on pitch; fly ball caught; is between 2nd and 3rd when throw to frist goes out of play. Ruling: Runner is awarded third (two bases from his original base). However, while the ball is dead, he must return to and touch first. (additional parts of the ruling deleted)

[Justme]

Originally Posted by midtnblu

Case Book 8.2.5

Ruling: A runner may not return to a base left too soon on a caught fly ball if he was on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead. Upon proper appeal, R1 shall be called out. If no appeal is made, R1 will be awarded 3B.


If R1 was headed back and was between 1B and 2B, the return is allowed and the award is 3B.

If you're going to use the case book you should include the situation:

8.2.5 Situation A

With R1 on first and no outs, B2 hits a long fly ball over the head of F8. R1 thinks the ball will fall in for a hit and attempts to advance to third. However, F8 makes the catch. F8 throws to first base, but the ball goes into dead-ball territory. R1, who is attempting to return to first base, is between second and third base when the ball becomes dead.

Ruling (in part): A runner may not return to a base left too soon on a caught fly ball if he was on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead. Upon proper appeal, R1 shall be called out. If no appeal is made, R1 will be awarded 3B.

Now assuming, as you did, that the throw to 1B (that went into dead-ball territory) was an appeal attempt:

What becomes of the defenses right to appeal?
Is the defense allowed to appeal again even though the first appeal attempt went into dead-ball territory?

How would you know for sure that the throw that went between 1B & 2B wasn’t an attempt to throw to 2B for a tag on the runner or to prevent him from advancing? If that were true and the runner was standing on 2B at the TOT (and no apparent appeal had been made at that time) would you still only award the runner 3B? And if the appeal isn't made?

Who says that if the throw was an attempt to appeal it wasn't properly made and the runner gets 3B?

So aren’t these discussions fun?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Justme

If you're going to use the case book you should include the situation:

8.2.5 Situation A

With R1 on first and no outs, B2 hits a long fly ball over the head of F8. R1 thinks the ball will fall in for a hit and attempts to advance to third. However, F8 makes the catch. F8 throws to first base, but the ball goes into dead-ball territory. R1, who is attempting to return to first base, is between second and third base when the ball becomes dead.

Ruling (in part): A runner may not return to a base left too soon on a caught fly ball if he was on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead. Upon proper appeal, R1 shall be called out. If no appeal is made, R1 will be awarded 3B.

Now assuming, as you did, that the throw to 1B (that went into dead-ball territory) was an appeal attempt:

What becomes of the defenses right to appeal?
Is the defense allowed to appeal again even though the first appeal attempt went into dead-ball territory?

The defense is still allowed to appeal.

1) It was continuous action.
2) Even if it wasn't, throwing the ball out of play does not stop the defense's right to appeal in FED.

How would you know for sure that the throw that went between 1B & 2B wasn’t an attempt to throw to 2B for a tag on the runner or to prevent him from advancing? If that were true and the runner was standing on 2B at the TOT (and no apparent appeal had been made at that time) would you still only award the runner 3B? And if the appeal isn't made?

By the verbal cues of the defense, including the coaches, and by the actions of the offensive player and coaches (are they yelling "get back" or are they saying "hold at second.")

If it's not an appeal, award home.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The defense is still allowed to appeal.

1) It was continuous action.
2) Even if it wasn't, throwing the ball out of play does not stop the defense's right to appeal in FED.




By the verbal cues of the defense, including the coaches, and by the actions of the offensive player and coaches (are they yelling "get back" or are they saying "hold at second.")

If it's not an appeal, award home.

Bob,

You know too much about the rules :-)

I was enjoying the banter between some of the other "experts" on the board and then you come along and answer my questions. I was looking forward to the discussion regarding my addition to the original situation.

[UMP25]

Folks, some clarification here.

From the MLBUM (verbatim, emphasis original)...

5.10 - Award made from original base after catch

A runner who is forced to return to a base after a catch must retouch his original base even though he may have been awarded additional bases on the play. The runner may retouch while the ball is dead (provided he does so before reaching his next base--see Section 5.11), and the award is then made from his original base. (See Casebook comments following Official Baseball Rule 7.05(i).)

Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the ball is caught. Right fielder's throw to first is wild and goes into the dugout. Runner is between second and third when the wild throw is made.

Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (two bases from his position at the time of the throw). However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base. Furthermore, because the runner was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he must return to first before reaching and touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first. However, if the runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base).

As you can see, PWL, the initial award is, indeed, home. This is also the same ruling in NCAA.


--Randy

[UMP25]

Keep this in mind when figuring out TOT and TOP: It is always TOT when an outfielder is the one throwing the ball, such as the play referenced in this thread.

TOT or TOP refers to when the throw was released from the fielder's hands. The exception would be on certain deflections or certain intentional acts by a fielder.