Question on Awards with Tagging up

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Durham

R1 must retouch or he will be called out on appeal. Everone in the ball park sees him trying to get back to 1st in most cases. The award is 2 bases from TOT, first play by an out fielder. The award is 3rd base. I don't quiet understand the confusion.

The confusion would be whether or not giving the two base award from first base would tip the defense off that they have an appeal. We all know he would be out on appeal if he fails to re-touch, but what if the defense doesn't appeal? He's considered to have obtained his advance base as soon as he reaches it until properly appealed.


Tim.

[Durham]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

The confusion would be whether or not giving the two base award from first base would tip the defense off that they have an appeal. We all know he would be out on appeal if he fails to re-touch, but what if the defense doesn't appeal? He's considered to have obtained his advance base as soon as he reaches it until properly appealed.


Tim.

But isn't the action of the outfielder throwing behind R1 in an attempt to double him off let us know that the defense is fully aware that the appeal is on. Furthermore, would you allow a second appeal at the same base on the same runner if the defense err's in its initial appeal attempt?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Durham

But isn't the action of the outfielder throwing behind R1 in an attempt to double him off let us know that the defense is fully aware that the appeal is on. Furthermore, would you allow a second appeal at the same base on the same runner if the defense err's in its initial appeal attempt?

Durham, the point is really that it doesn't matter if the defense is, or isn't, aware of a possible appeal. It's two bases from the last base (2nd base in this case) obtained by the runner.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Durham

R1 must retouch or he will be called out on appeal. Everone in the ball park sees him trying to get back to 1st in most cases. The award is 2 bases from TOT, first play by an out fielder. The award is 3rd base. I don't quiet understand the confusion.

I think the confusion is my fault, as there are two plays here.

If the runner was between 1st and 2nd when the OF threw the ball, as in the OP, the award is 3rd base. If the runner was on 2nd or between 2nd and 3rd when the OF threw the ball, as in my corollary, the award is home. In either case, the runner can retouch any bases left early or missed bases, but we are not to do anything to tip anyone off that there was a base that needs to be retouched.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by PWL

He get two bases from the time of the throw from his last LEGALLY obtained base. He had not LEGALLY obtained second. Therefore, the runner must return LEGALLY to tag first. Thus, his LEGAL base at the time of throw was first base.

I guess I should have said if the defense attempts a play before they appeal for that eagle eye of yours.

Instead of just saying this is flat wrong, I'll ask this:

R1 leaves first base just a hair early on a fly ball to DEEP RF. F9 throws to F8. After R1 rounds 2nd base, F8 uncorks the ball over the fence, A) over third base, or B) over 1st base. What do you award? Consider that at this point you may or may not know that the defense plans on appealing at first base.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

He get two bases from the time of the throw from his last LEGALLY obtained base. He had not LEGALLY obtained second. Therefore, the runner must return LEGALLY to tag first. Thus, his LEGAL base at the time of throw was first base.

I guess I should have said if the defense attempts a play before they appeal for that eagle eye of yours.

It's okay mccrowder, I'll say it:

PWL, YOU ARE FLAT-OUT WRONG!

The award is from the bases occupied at the time of the wild throw, which was second base. The rule - 7.05(g) - makes no mention of legally or illegally obtained bases. Same with FED, rule 8-3-3c. Nothing requiring legally obtaining a base is remotely mentioned.

Please don't make up rules that don't exist.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by PWL

The base he last legally occupied was first. Two bases from there. How can the runner occupy second when he has to retreat to first to tag the base. He doesn't legally occupy second. So why award the runner home? Happy now.

And what rule is that?

Lets say he just stands on second, and the defense never appeals. Does he still not legally occupy second. His position is legally his until appealed.

If there is a casebook or rule against this please post PWL. For me common sense in this situation told be one of his rewards was a retouch at 1st. But I inquired about the rule and was told my common sense was wrong by rule. Perhaps yours is too.

[mcrowder]

PWL, I see you completely ignored my question. Because you couldn't possibly have an answer that is consistent with your incorrect ruling and still makes sense.

The book makes no mention of the umpire's need to determine whether bases were attained legally or illegally, nor does it mention the need to "erase" part of a base award if a retouch is required.

This has come up in clinics before and unanimously the answer is that the player is simply (simple because it says nearly exactly this in the book) awarded 2 bases from WHERE HE IS at the time of the throw.

Let's give it another hypothetical that illustrates your solution as wrong. R1 starts on first, tags legally, passes 2nd base, coach is then yelling BACK BACK, so he returns, missing 2nd, but is between 1st and 2nd when F9 throws the ball out of play. The last "legally acquired base" in your vernacular (not to be found in a rulebook), is SECOND base - but he's between 1st and 2nd at TOT. The proper award is 3rd base. You would award home by your logic. Clearly this is also wrong.

[midtnblu]

Case Book 8.2.5

Ruling: A runner may not return to a base left too soon on a caught fly ball if he was on or beyond a succeeding base when the ball became dead. Upon proper appeal, R1 shall be called out. If no appeal is made, R1 will be awarded 3B.


If R1 was headed back and was between 1B and 2B, the return is allowed and the award is 3B.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I couldn't find this covered anywhere, so I can only assume, but I want to KNOW!

Man on 1st, less than 2 outs. Fly ball to the outfielder, caught. He throws behind R1 to try to double him off. The throw goes into dead ball territory. 2 base award.

Now, do you grant R1 a retouch at 1st as his first base and then award second? Or do you award straight to third and leave it up to him to retouch, for free. Casebook/rules references (couldn't find anything in rules) would be perferred if you have them (I don't own anything but this year's casebook, as I am a new umpire).

Thanks.

Somehow I was under the false impression, due to the runner passing 2nd base I believe, that this was not a caught ball. This whole time I have been arguing about an advancing runner on an uncaught ball thrown out of play.

Now that I read the original situation properly, the award should be 2 bases from the time of the pitch. 8-3-5b and 5-1-1g(3).

The runner, seeing that the ball was caught, can then retreat, retouch 2nd base and then go retouch 1st, as long as he touches 2nd before the ball goes out of play. Once the ball is dead, he can no longer touch 2nd before returning to first. Chances are most runners will have retouched 2nd long before the ball goes out of play.

PWL, you get one free kick in my butt. Take dead aim.

[jxt127]

Not quite.

If the runner is between 2nd and 3rd at the time the ball ends up in DBT he can return to 1st to correct his leaving early error as long as he does not advance to and touch 3rd base after the ball is dead.

And it's two bases from the time of the throw. Given that the ball is a caught fly this is usually going to be the same as TOP.

[SAump]

The original thread discussed a CAUGHT FLY BALL. Any ballplayer (8 years or older) knows that a baserunner must (return and) RETOUCH after a caught fly ball. That means most teams will throw the ball back to first base and appeal the obvious infraction. Sometimes, fielders may try to make a tag play on the runner at or between bases.

If baserunner is caught between 2nd and 3rd when the ball enters DBT, what is he suppose to do; advance to third, stop at second or continue to first? If he stops at second or advances to third, then he might as well be hung out to dry on a CFB. He better get back to first and he better hope that the defense ignores his position between 2nd and 3rd when the ball entered DBT. Once he reaches first, he would be out on immediate appeal (past 2nd base) or he would be awarded TWO bases if no appeal is made. That TWO base award should clue the defense to appeal the obvious before the NEXT pitch.

Its one thing not to appeal a missed base; but its another thing to ignore a CAUGHT FLY BALL. A CFB retouch beats a DBT award everytime. Why would I award HOME team home on a ball that enters DBT afterward,do I ignore the CATCH too?

[SAump]

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"Baby, I'm gonna sine yo' pitty on the runny kine!....Pootie Tang "
What does that mean?
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"PWL, you get one free kick in my butt. Take dead aim."
Doesn't sound any better than Pootie Tang.
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Somehow I may be under the false impression, too. Can you help get it off me?