Babe Ruth Follies

[jumpmaster]

what region is this guy from?

[SAump]

Your 'discussion on appeals' got under my skin. It concerns the mechanic for a missed base when the runner beats the ball to the bag at first base.

A) The UIC said to do nothing and as soon as F3 steps on the bag, bang out the BR. He insisted it was our duty to call him out as soon as F3 received the ball while touching the bag.

When the runner stops at 1B, the margin for CORRECTION also shortens exponentially. Pitcher and catcher may not likely question an umpire {incorrectly} selling SAFE insurance. The defensive coach, who is restricted to the dugout, has very limited opportunity to restore timely order. Any umpire who then reverses his original SAFE call also has to deal with another issue, INTEGRITY. I think this UIC is standing on solid GROUND, not trying to impress us with knowledge.

B) The proper mechanic is to signal safe as soon as the trail foot passes the bag and then wait for the appeal.

Isn't it the responsibility of an umpire to make the right call? I cannot understand option B when the runner continues safely to 2B or 3B or home. Then the defense also has a 90-foot (plus) advantage to get in their timely appeal. I was also told at a clinic held by REAL umps not to signal safe or point toward home if the runner missed home plate. To choose his words, "It would look pretty foolish if you reverse your call 15 seconds later."

But again, I am not holding the bag of CHIPS on this one either. I am willing to consider another opinion from anyone willing to help me understand what I may have missed at my CLINIQUE.

[Az.Ump]

" When the runner stops at 1B, the margin for CORRECTION also shortens exponentially. Pitcher and catcher may not likely question an umpire {incorrectly} selling SAFE insurance. The defensive coach, who is restricted to the dugout, has very limited opportunity to restore timely order. Any umpire who then reverses his original SAFE call also has to deal with another issue, INTEGRITY. I think this UIC is standing on solid GROUND, not trying to impress us with knowledge."

" Isn't it the responsibility of an umpire to make the right call? I cannot understand option B when the runner continues safely to 2B or 3B or home. Then the defense also has a 90-foot (plus) advantage to get in their timely appeal. I was also told at a clinic held by REAL umps not to signal safe or point toward home if the runner missed home plate. To choose his words, "It would look pretty foolish if you reverse your call 15 seconds later.""

Are you George Costanza?

[SanDiegoSteve]

No, Lance Cokalinski's evil twin. The serious one!

[Tim C]

I do not think that SAump can state a clear statement.

I cannot follow his sentance structure, much less his discussions.

I must be in a "user error" moment since I simply do not understand his points.

That is not rare, by the way.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by Tim C

I do not think that SAump can state a clear statement.

I cannot follow his sentance structure, much less his discussions.

I must be in a "user error" moment since I simply do not understand his points.

That is not rare, by the way.

He has no 'point.' Give him 3 more paragraphs and he'll convince himself that Steve Bartman hit the series-winning single in the 2004 World Series.

[SAump]

I try to listen for the ball in the mitt while I watch both the runner and first baseman legally touch. I have been taught not to signal safe or out right away. I have been taught to set, read, pause and allow the "dust to settle." I don't signal safe or out unless I am damn sure it's a SAFE or OUT call. Afterall, I am in no hurry to hang myself. You could be sure that my call would be made prior to the baserunner reversing direction after sprinting long past first base.

I have been told its okay to take even more time if its a bangor. It helps sell the proper safe or out call. I try to gather as much info as possible. No one has ever asked me to rule if he is safe or out before. If they do ask, then I would probably signal safe. Now if the first words I hear are "He missed the bag." That would lead me to another entirely different CALL. Now if the runner indicated that he missed the bag by quickly returning to the bag, I don't need to wait for an appeal. It's like self-incriminating evidence. The defense is holding the ball and touching the bag. VERDICT for the DEFENSE.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by SAump

Your 'discussion on appeals' got under my skin. It concerns the mechanic for a missed base when the runner beats the ball to the bag at first base.

A) The UIC said to do nothing and as soon as F3 steps on the bag, bang out the BR. He insisted it was our duty to call him out as soon as F3 received the ball while touching the bag.

When the runner stops at 1B, the margin for CORRECTION also shortens exponentially. Pitcher and catcher may not likely question an umpire {incorrectly} selling SAFE insurance. The defensive coach, who is restricted to the dugout, has very limited opportunity to restore timely order. Any umpire who then reverses his original SAFE call also has to deal with another issue, INTEGRITY. I think this UIC is standing on solid GROUND, not trying to impress us with knowledge.

B) The proper mechanic is to signal safe as soon as the trail foot passes the bag and then wait for the appeal.

Isn't it the responsibility of an umpire to make the right call? I cannot understand option B when the runner continues safely to 2B or 3B or home. Then the defense also has a 90-foot (plus) advantage to get in their timely appeal. I was also told at a clinic held by REAL umps not to signal safe or point toward home if the runner missed home plate. To choose his words, "It would look pretty foolish if you reverse your call 15 seconds later."

But again, I am not holding the bag of CHIPS on this one either. I am willing to consider another opinion from anyone willing to help me understand what I may have missed at my CLINIQUE.

Let me help you with what you missed at your "CLINIQUE."


"Professional umpires are trained to render the "safe" signal and voice declaration at first base even though the batter-runner missed the base but is considered past the base when the tag of first base is made. This becomes an appeal play and the batter-runner would subsequently be called out for failure to properly touch the base. This is the proper mechanical procedure at all bases involving force plays. On plays which require a tag, professional umpires are instructed to make no call until the runner legally touches the base or the runner is tagged before legally touching the base. "


The reasoning behind this would be that a runner is considered to have legally obtained a missed base as soon as he passes it until properly appealed. All missed bases are appeal plays. As all plays deserve a call, if the umpire signals nothing, then he becomes the 10th man on defense and alerts the defense that they have an appeal available to them. Also, appeals must be unmistakeable, so F3 just touching the bag when he receives the ball can not be considered to be an appeal.

This is the AR for an appeal.

"An appeal should be clearly intended as an appeal, either by a verbal request by the player or an act that unmistakably indicates an appeal to the umpire. A player, inadvertently stepping on the base with a ball in his hand, would not constitute an appeal. Time is not out when an appeal is being made.
Cross References: Appendices 15, 16, 17, 18 "


Tim.

[SAump]

Is this mechanic universally taught at the JE clinic or Pro/NCAA/FED-landia?

[BigUmp56]

Yes, all of the ones that you mentioned use this mechanic.

Tim.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by SAump

I am willing to consider another opinion from anyone willing to help me understand what I may have missed at my CLINIQUE.

The reason you don't understand is that you were at a makeup store when the rest of the umpires were at a clinic. This explains it all.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

The reason you don't understand is that you were at a makeup store when the rest of the umpires were at a clinic. This explains it all.

ROTFLMAO!!!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAump

B) The proper mechanic is to signal safe as soon as the trail foot passes the bag and then wait for the appeal.

Isn't it the responsibility of an umpire to make the right call? I cannot understand option B when the runner continues safely to 2B or 3B or home. Then the defense also has a 90-foot (plus) advantage to get in their timely appeal. I was also told at a clinic held by REAL umps not to signal safe or point toward home if the runner missed home plate. To choose his words, "It would look pretty foolish if you reverse your call 15 seconds later."

But again, I am not holding the bag of CHIPS on this one either. I am willing to consider another opinion from anyone willing to help me understand what I may have missed at my CLINIQUE.

The mechanic on this play is often described as "The umpire signals safe ...". I think this is wrong. The mechanic should be, "The umpire does whatever he would do if the runner had touched the bag." Now, it's consistent with the runner going to 2B, etc -- we're not tipping off either side, nor calling something that doesn't need to be called.

In practice, the play at first is "close enough" that we'd normally give a "relaxed" safe signal -- so that's what we should do when the runner misses the bag.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The mechanic on this play is often described as "The umpire signals safe ...". I think this is wrong. The mechanic should be, "The umpire does whatever he would do if the runner had touched the bag." Now, it's consistent with the runner going to 2B, etc -- we're not tipping off either side, nor calling something that doesn't need to be called.

In practice, the play at first is "close enough" that we'd normally give a "relaxed" safe signal -- so that's what we should do when the runner misses the bag.

I think BigUmp56 already gave the professional interpretation, which is the same one I use in all of my games. Why do you disagree with the authoritative opinion and accepted mechanic?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I think BigUmp56 already gave the professional interpretation, which is the same one I use in all of my games. Why do you disagree with the authoritative opinion and accepted mechanic?

I already explained my opinion on this -- whenever a runner misses a base, we should act just as we would have acted had the runner touched the base (with the exception of a tag play at home when both the tag and the touch are missed). That way, we avoid telling either side that there was a missed base.

Some umpires get in the habit of pointing at the base (especially home) when a runner touches it. When they don't point, it tips off the defense. So we (I think all of us) would try to get the umpire to break the habit.

On a close play at first, where BR beats the throw, I signal safe. So, I'd signal safe if BR misses the base (but beats the throw).

On a not-close play at first (maybe F3 celarly drops the ball), we (at least I) don't signal safe. So, if BR misses the base, I won't change to signal safe.