Positions B and C

[midtnblu]

If I'm in R2's line of sight with the pitcher when I'm in C...

A) he's hung out to dry cuz he's got a huge lead and

B) If he can't see over me (hands on knees) he's not old enough to be leading off.

[NIump50]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
[/B][/QUOTE]

Some states put BU in C only when a steal of third is possible (i.e., R1,R2 or R2 only). Otherwise they put BU in B.[/B]

I agree with this mechanic. I'm only in C when r2 can steal 3rd. In all other cases the likelihood of a play at 3rd is much less than at any other base, therefore B position gives you the best look.

[briancurtin]

Originally posted by orioles35
With R2, doesn't C interfere with the baserunner's line of sight with the pitcher?

if this is the case, take a step in towards home plate. problem solved.

[NIump50]

Originally posted by Tim C
No written official mechanic document says to use the philosophy as expounded by NIUmp.

Not the NAPL manual, not the CCA book, not the Federation Umpire Manual.

If it works in your local area and it is accepted, USE IT. Otherwise stick to what has been researched, documented and tested over time.

I did a quick check on 2 states IL and NH that have mechanics available online and both teach and endorse pos b in all cases, with men on base, except r1 and R2, or r2 only.

Perhaps they are rogue states teaching a bad mechanic that hasn't been tested, but it makes sense to me. If you're playing the per centages this mechanic puts you in the best position and after all isn't that what we are striving for?

[Edited by NIump50 on Mar 17th, 2006 at 01:16 PM]

[nickrego]

Runner on 1st: B
Standard

Runner on 2nd: C
Standard

Runner on 3rd: B
Puts me closer to 1st (where the play is most likely)
Calling a “Pick-Play” at 3rd is no different from
calling a “Pick-Play” at 1st from C

Runner on 1st & 2nd: C
Standard

Runner on 1st & 3rd: B
Puts me in position for a play at 1st, 2nd,
or double play at 1st & 2nd
(where the play is most likely)

Runner on 1st, 2nd & 3rd: B
Puts me in position for a play at 1st, 2nd,
or double play (where the play is most likely)

These are the preferred 2-Man mechanics of our High School association, and I prefer them.

I think Papa C. has a rhyme about being in C, but I couldn’t find it at the moment.

Something like;

B oh B, how I hate to be in C !

[NIump50]

Originally posted by Tim C
Dave Yeast said it far better than I could have:

"Any umpire that feels he has to start in "B" to get to the next play when he was supposed to start from "C" isn't much of an umpire.

"An umpire can move from "C" to the exact same position that is attained by starting incorrectly in "B".

"We have studied starting positions over the years and have selected, with much thought, where we want umpires to be."

Of course that is just his opinion.

If you're implying that anyone that uses the mechanic I sugested is a bad umpire it's a shame you have to go there instead of discussing the pros and cons of both.

I simply stated the facts as I see them.

1. At least two states endorse and teach this mechanic. I'm sure there are many more I simply have not done the research.

2. The per centages work in favor of this mechanic.

If you disagree with any of these 2 statements I think it would be an interesting discussion.

Perhaps the mechanic I'm using is not as effective as the old style. Could you please point me to the research and testing you previously refered to so I can better evaluate the two mechanics.
Thanks

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by nickrego
Runner on 1st: B
Standard

Runner on 2nd: C
Standard

Runner on 3rd: B
Puts me closer to 1st (where the play is most likely)
Calling a “Pick-Play” at 3rd is no different from
calling a “Pick-Play” at 1st from C

Runner on 1st & 2nd: C
Standard

Runner on 1st & 3rd: B
Puts me in position for a play at 1st, 2nd,
or double play at 1st & 2nd
(where the play is most likely)

Runner on 1st, 2nd & 3rd: B
Puts me in position for a play at 1st, 2nd,
or double play (where the play is most likely)

These are the preferred 2-Man mechanics of our High School association, and I prefer them.

I think Papa C. has a rhyme about being in C, but I couldn’t find it at the moment.

Something like;

B oh B, how I hate to be in C !

For 1st and 3rd, 3rd only, or bases loaded, I still prefer C, because that was the way it was taught when I learned.

The pickoff at 3rd from B is not the same as the pickoff at 1st from C. The angle you get with a runner returning to 3rd is vastly different than one returning to 1st. If the runner at first was diving back from the home plate side of the first base line, then your statement would be correct. The best angle to call a runner going back into 3rd is in C. All you have to do is turn to your right, and you have an almost perfect angle (very close to a 90 degree angle). From B, the angle is more closed (far less than an ideal 90 degrees).

I understand why many people prefer B. The argument that pickoffs at 3rd are rare, and that it's more likely that a play will be at first base is a valid argument. I personally have no problem getting from C to the proper position to make all calls at 2nd or 1st. I would have no chance on a pickoff at 3rd to get a good angle from B.

Nlump50, starting in B with a runner on 2nd only, how do you call the steal of third? You need to have an angle closer to the 3rd base line, and from B you just can't get there.

From C, all you need to do is run a few steps in and toward the line on an angle, and you are a)at a good angle to call the play, and b)much closer to the play, and less likely to have a coach in your face asking why you were so far from the play).

[nickrego]

SanDiegoSteve

I think you are correct that the pick play at 3rd is not exactly the same as at 1st.

The play at 3rd is easily made from B or C, because the runner is moving perpendicular to the umpire, so he does not block the action.

Whereas, a pick play at 1st, we need to be able to look more downward on the play to see everything, because the runner is somewhat between us and the low tag. Being closer makes it much easier.

I have called these plays from both positions, and I feel much more comfortable making them using the positioning I posted.

[NIump50]

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve

For 1st and 3rd, 3rd only, or bases loaded, I still prefer C, because that was the way it was taught when I learned.

The pickoff at 3rd from B is not the same as the pickoff at 1st from C. The angle you get with a runner returning to 3rd is vastly different than one returning to 1st. If the runner at first was diving back from the home plate side of the first base line, then your statement would be correct. The best angle to call a runner going back into 3rd is in C. All you have to do is turn to your right, and you have an almost perfect angle (very close to a 90 degree angle). From B, the angle is more closed (far less than an ideal 90 degrees).

I understand why many people prefer B. The argument that pickoffs at 3rd are rare, and that it's more likely that a play will be at first base is a valid argument. I personally have no problem getting from C to the proper position to make all calls at 2nd or 1st. I would have no chance on a pickoff at 3rd to get a good angle from B.

Nlump50, starting in B with a runner on 2nd only, how do you call the steal of third? You need to have an angle closer to the 3rd base line, and from B you just can't get there.

From C, all you need to do is run a few steps in and toward the line on an angle, and you are a)at a good angle to call the play, and b)much closer to the play, and less likely to have a coach in your face asking why you were so far from the play).

Runner on 2nd only or 1st and second I'm in C.
I agree with all your angle concerns, but I'm confused on one point.

You said "I personally have no problem getting from C to the proper position to make all calls at 2nd or 1st....."

Tim implied that you can get from C to B on a play at first, is the proper position you are referring to B?
I don't think that is possible. I'm not saying you don't have a look, but it is not as good as B.
Here's my reasoning:
Runner on third no out, ground shot to F5, runner faking to home, not unusual. BU in C can't move toward B because you're watching for play at 3rd. F5 checks runner even fients a throw, BU has to be focused on third until F5 turns to first. When F5 turns to first BU has about 1.5 seconds, or less to get into position for the call.
Now you're making a banger call at first from across the diamond.
Personally, I'd rather be closer to first with a better angle for that play than to have the better angle at third for the rare occasions a pickoff that direction is close.
If I am misrepresenting this play please correct me.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Nlump50,

I see your point. However, on the play you are describing, the most important runner is the one closest to home plate. You need to keep all your focus on this runner until F5 actually throws to first. When you see that F5 is now going to really throw to first, you get a few steps, stop, set, see it, call it. Angle over distance on any force play. I can call a force play virtually from anywhere in the ballpark. It is the tag play that can get tricky if you don't get a good look at it.

B and C are not the positions we are to make our calls from. They are starting positions only. When I'm in C, and a ground ball to F6, I start straight in toward the mound, pivot with the play, gain ground toward 1st, and make the call from the first base side of the diamond. So, saying that you make calls from B and C is not accurate, unless you are just standing stationary and not hustling.

[NIump50]

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve
Nlump50,

I see your point. However, on the play you are describing, the most important runner is the one closest to home plate. You need to keep all your focus on this runner until F5 actually throws to first. When you see that F5 is now going to really throw to first, you get a few steps, stop, set, see it, call it. Angle over distance on any force play. I can call a force play virtually from anywhere in the ballpark. It is the tag play that can get tricky if you don't get a good look at it.

B and C are not the positions we are to make our calls from. They are starting positions only. When I'm in C, and a ground ball to F6, I start straight in toward the mound, pivot with the play, gain ground toward 1st, and make the call from the first base side of the diamond. So, saying that you make calls from B and C is not accurate, unless you are just standing stationary and not hustling.

I don't disagree that the tag at third is of utmost importance, however it is a rare occurance. Both mechanics have poitives and negatives. It will be interesting to see if the new mechanic continues to gain momentum.
Thank you for not blatently pointing out my F5 braincramp.

[NIump50]

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve
Nlump50,

I see your point. However, on the play you are describing, the most important runner is the one closest to home plate. You need to keep all your focus on this runner until F5 actually throws to first. When you see that F5 is now going to really throw to first, you get a few steps, stop, set, see it, call it. Angle over distance on any force play. I can call a force play virtually from anywhere in the ballpark. It is the tag play that can get tricky if you don't get a good look at it.

B and C are not the positions we are to make our calls from. They are starting positions only. When I'm in C, and a ground ball to F6, I start straight in toward the mound, pivot with the play, gain ground toward 1st, and make the call from the first base side of the diamond. So, saying that you make calls from B and C is not accurate, unless you are just standing stationary and not hustling.

I don't disagree that the tag at third is of utmost importance, however it is a rare occurance. Both mechanics have poitives and negatives. It will be interesting to see if the new mechanic continues to gain momentum.
Thank you for not blatently pointing out my F5 braincramp.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I will point out the double post, however.

[DG]

I am glad I don't work in IL or NH were umpires are forced to work in positions not endorsed by CCA, PBUC, or Fed for that matter. Sounds like they want to sacrifice the call for consistency of positioning.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Originally Posted by DG

I am glad I don't work in IL or NH were umpires are forced to work in positions not endorsed by CCA, PBUC, or Fed for that matter. Sounds like they want to sacrifice the call for consistency of positioning.

There are a few of us that worki in the Land of Lincoln and I can't find any material that shows that we advocate unorthodox positioning. Of course, each umpire develops unique mechanics to suit his or her limitations - not to bolster their strengths. I know guys who go down to the knee for out calls on steals and routine plays at first. I laugh at them, but know them!

Illinois may have some odd personalities (yes, my hand is up) and you may see some NCAA mechanics on a HS field occasionally, but by and large the mechanics are universally accepted. That seems like a broad brush you are painting with - take heed to stay in the lines.