obstruction and trail runner

[O.T.Hill]

Solve this scenario for me, please. I came up with this one off the top of my head as I sit in the middle of swampy conditions with my first game scheduled for a week from now:
B2 hits a single to left-center. R1 is obstructed by F6 as he rounds second and is subsequently thrown out at third. B2 is then thrown out trying to go to second. I know that R1 may be awarded 3rd, and even home. But, what about B2 ? Is he out for trying to advance past first, which he probably would have placed at? I have read about the lead runner being awarded one base if he was stealing on the pitch, or being placed back where he was at time-of-pitch if he was stationary. I don't recall reading a whole lot about the trail runner.

[DG]

Originally posted by O.T.Hill
Solve this scenario for me, please. I came up with this one off the top of my head as I sit in the middle of swampy conditions with my first game scheduled for a week from now:
B2 hits a single to left-center. R1 is obstructed by F6 as he rounds second and is subsequently thrown out at third. B2 is then thrown out trying to go to second. I know that R1 may be awarded 3rd, and even home. But, what about B2 ? Is he out for trying to advance past first, which he probably would have placed at? I have read about the lead runner being awarded one base if he was stealing on the pitch, or being placed back where he was at time-of-pitch if he was stationary. I don't recall reading a whole lot about the trail runner.

R1 is awarded 3B. If he was thrown out at 3B I am hard pressed to think he would have made home on the play absent the obstruction so on 3rd he stays. B2 is out for trying to stretch a single into a double. You haven't read a lot about trail runner because there is not much to say. Trail runner advances at his own risk.

[greymule]

In OBR, obstruction on a runner being played upon results in an immediate dead ball. There's no out at 3B or out at 2B. The umpire awards R1 third and awards the BR the base he would have reached.

[O.T.Hill]

I really need to concentrate strictly on FED rules. Obstruction is not immediate dead ball in FED, correct?
Thanks for responses.

[Sal Giaco]

Type B obstruction - leave the ball live until ALL playing action ceases, then award bases, if necessary, to nullify the obstruction.

In this play, obstruction had nothing to do with the B/R - he advances at his own peril and thus, his out at second stands. As for R1, if he was thrown out at third on a relatively close play, award him third base since the obstruction probably caused him to be thrown out.

Don't forget, Type A obstruction is atleast a one base award, however in Type B obstruction, the award is based on umpire's judgement as to where the runner would have ended up if the obstruction did not occur.

[BigUmp56]

Sal's nailed this one. In order for you to have type A obstruction the defense has to be making a play on the runner at the time of the obstruction or the batter-runner needs to be obstructed before reaching first base. Here in the play presented the obstruction occured prior to a play being made on the runner so it's definetely type B. This should be a delayed dead ball and the obstructed runner should be protected to third. However, if you felt the obstruction was so flagrant that he could have acquired home absent the obstruction then you would award him home. The trailing runner advanced and put himself in jeapordy so that out stands.


Tim.

[Edited by BigUmp56 on Mar 13th, 2006 at 10:39 PM]

[O.T.Hill]

Thanks, fellas. I learned something about type A / type B obstruction.
OTH

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by greymule

In OBR, obstruction on a runner being played upon results in an immediate dead ball. There's no out at 3B or out at 2B. The umpire awards R1 third and awards the BR the base he would have reached.

GreyMule the play being described is Type "B" OBS not Type "A". R2 is awarded 3rd base and the out at second stands. The OBS did not effect the BR.

Pete Booth

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by O.T.Hill

really need to concentrate strictly on FED rules. Obstruction is not immediate dead ball in FED, correct?
Thanks for responses.

Read Sal's response and discard GreyMules. In this instance the OBR/FED rulings are the same. In OBR this is type "B" OBS. In FED, ALL OBS is "delayed dead".

There are differences between FED/OBR with regards to OBS, but in the scenario given, the results are the same. R1 is awarded 3rd base and the out at second stands.

EXCEPTION: Let's assume R1 was thrown out at third base by a MILE. In OBR Type "B" OBS, there is a phrase "award bases "If any" that nullify the OBS.

Therefore, in OBR Type "B" it's possible that you would not award any base in which case both outs would stand. However, in FED, a runner who is obstructed gets a minimum of a one base award no matter if he was out by a mile or a "whisker".

Side Note: In the FED rule-book they have a concise table on when the ball is immediately dead vs. delayed dead. If you are going to umpire FED games I would strongly recommend that you review and study the table.

Pete Booth

[Sal Giaco]

Originally posted by PeteBooth
EXCEPTION: Let's assume R1 was thrown out at third base by a MILE. In OBR Type "B" OBS, there is a phrase "award bases "If any" that nullify the OBS.

Therefore, in OBR Type "B" it's possible that you would not award any base in which case both outs would stand. However, in FED, a runner who is obstructed gets a minimum of a one base award no matter if he was out by a mile or a "whisker".
Pete Booth

GREAT point Pete - I was going to mention that but I didn't want to confuse him. You explained it nicely!

[greymule]

The original post didn't specify the code; that's why I said OBR. The words "as he rounds second" do indicate that this is type B OBS (no play being made at the moment of the OBS), but I pictured type A, where "the runner is obstructed as a fielder is making a direct throw to a base in an attempt to retire that runner" [PBUC]. In other words, I pictured the OBS occurring as the play at 3B was developing, not as the runner rounded 2B with the ball in the outfield.

I believe that the "if any" in "impose such penalties, if any" is mainly a reminder that the umpire doesn't award anything extra if everybody ends up on the base he would have reached without the OBS. But it also implies that an obstructed runner could still be put out after the (type B) OBS.

[BigUmp56]

Originally posted by btman

everybody here gave R1 third base but it depends on how bad he was OBSed. let's say that he wa runnin on the pitch,F6 trips anf falls rite on top of the bag. R1 can't even touch the bag but he's in thew vicinity and F6 ain't a gettin up!

now where do you put R1, on the bench on appeal?

Let me try this again.


Not everyone said the runner would only get third. Go back and read the thread again and you'll see that. If F6 fell on top of the bag and obstructed R1 then it's still a judgment call as to where you place R1 to nullify the act of the obstruction.

Now, can someone explain to me why it's appropriate to allow btman (Walter Rucker) to edit and add to O.T. Hill's post a link to his own forum?

[BigUmp56]

This is not all that complicated. I would place him on whatever base I feel he would have made absent the obstruction. It's kind of hard to say without seeing the play unfold in real time. I would have to take into account the speed of the runner, the position of the ball on the infield, and the nature of the obstruction. In other words was the runner just bumped, did he just have to alter his path to avoid the fielder, or was he knocked violently to the ground would be big factors in determining the award.


Tim.

[Blue37]

OBR 7.06 When obstruction occurs, the umpire shall call or signal "Obstruction."
(a) If a play is being made on the obstructed runner, or if the batter runner is obstructed before he touches first base, the ball is dead and all runners shall advance, without liability to be put out, to the bases they would have reached, in the umpire's judgment, if there had been no obstruction.

(b) If no play is being made on the obstructed runner, the play shall proceed until no further action is possible. The umpire shall then call "Time" and impose such penalties, if any, as in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction.

Both (a) and (b) give authority to place the other runners, but you must be certain the obstruction affected the other runners.

Situation: Runners on 1st and 2nd. Batter hits one to the fence in right center. F5 obstructs R2 as he nears 3rd. The contact stuns R2 to the point he cannot advance past 3rd. As a result of the obstruction, R1 has to stop at 2nd and the batter has to stop at 1st. In your opinion, absent the obstruction, this would have been a stand-up triple with two runs scoring.

7.06(b) says to "impose such penalties, if any, as in his judgment will nulify the act of obstruction." In the above situation, my judgment is to score the two runs and put the batter on 3rd.

In the original situation, if I saw the batter check up due to the obstruction of R1, and I was certain it was the check up that cause him to be out at 2nd, I would place him on 2nd.

[ctblu40]

I may be wrong here, but I thought the FED obstruction rule changed to ALWAYS a delayed dead ball situation? What i mean to say is that according to Hederation rules, there is no Type -A or B obstruction.... right?