First Day on the Field( GD System Rant)

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Tim C
We have a three day Evans camp on March 3, 4, & 5.

I have been told that I will be "required" to work the stand heel-toe that is taught at school during days one and two. On Sunday I will be "allowed" to work Davis.

I guess they will ban me from the first two days as I will not work another stance.

lah Me!

Tim:

Looking forward to seeing you again in Wilsonville. I'm sure this outing will be far superior to out last experience there.

By the way, at the Desert Classic, Evans allowed a more comfortable heel/instep stance in addition to the heel/toe.

One reason he didn't allow the GD stance, I believe, was that he wanted to demonstrate to everyone that with proper positioning and proper use of the eyes (timing), one can see everything , including the outside low pitch, using the heel/toe (heel/instep) stance in the slot. His concept of seeing the pitch to the glove was different from every explanation, demonstration and personal practice I've had in the past. It was a true "aha!" moment.

We had a number of GD stance advocates, including me, at that event who, after Jim's training, went back to the heel/toe (heel/instep) stance with renewed confidence.

[BigUmp56]

I did get the point but I still had a reason to ask.

I have no plans at present to attend an Evans clinic. I'm not even sure where the closest one to me is located. However, because I'm unable to attend one of these sessions I thought I might get some needed help from someone here. Thanks for responding Tee and Garth.

I have used the scissors for years. Two years ago at the end of the fall season I had my seventh knee surgery. I had a real bad injury my senior year in high school to my right knee that required three operations within a year. Since that time I have had one more surgery on that knee and three on my left to repair meniscus damage.

Last season I started to experience more pain than usual in both knees. When I asked my doctor, he took x-rays and told me I had early onset of osteoarthritis in both knees. He suggested that I might be excaserbating the problem with all the leaning on my knees when I umpire. I'm seriously interested in making a switch to try and see if a new stance helps. I didn't mean to be a bother.



Tim.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by BigUmp56
I did get the point but I still had a reason to ask.

I have no plans at present to attend an Evans clinic. I'm not even sure where the closest one to me is located. However, because I'm unable to attend one of these sessions I thought I might get some needed help from someone here. Thanks for responding Tee and Garth.

I have used the scissors for years. Two years ago at the end of the fall season I had my seventh knee surgery. I had a real bad injury my senior year in high school to my right knee that required three operations within a year. Since that time I have had one more surgery on that knee and three on my left to repair meniscus damage.

Last season I started to experience more pain than usual in both knees. When I asked my doctor, he took x-rays and told me I had early onset of osteoarthritis in both knees. He suggested that I might be excaserbating the problem with all the leaning on my knees when I umpire. I'm seriously interested in making a switch to try and see if a new stance helps. I didn't mean to be a bother.

Tim.

Don't have a hissy fit.

I am assuming you want the exact details of how Jim first presented the stance and how we drilled. I am at the age where I'm afraid I could possibly confuse what I did the last day of the Classic with what I did the first day.

I am looking for my tape so that I can give you an exact blow by blow description from start to end. Have a little patience without assuming the worst.

[BigUmp56]

Sorry, Garth. My comments were directed toward whoever said that by asking the question I didn't get the point of your message.


Thanks for looking into it.


Tim.

[Tim C]

I am chuckling because the last time I made the following statement someone actually said I was wrong and to PROVE it:

Here goes, again:

Professional baseball has disallowed the use of the scissor stance at AA baseball and below by their umpires (err, that would be when they get back to work).

The reason is that the insurance coverage company for both MLB abd MiLB has said that they will no longer cover injuries that come from the use of the stance.

What injury you may ask:

Here is the example that is given:

Take a tennis ball and hold it, with a straight arm, out in front of you. Hold it there for two minutes.

Now take a bowling ball and hold it it the same position. Impossible correct?

So consider your head as the bowling ball (now no comments that we have certain poster's that this isn't an analogy but a fact) . . . and that is the affect if you use the scissors stance.

MLB and MiLB baseball had many, many injuries that required surgery (and retirement for a couple of guys) that were traced directly to the use of the scissors stance and the effects on the neck and spinal cord.

Many, many MLB umpires have switched during the past few years . . . the scissors stance, other than those grandfathered in at the AAA and MLB level, is a disappearing dodo bird.

Information suplied by Mike Muchlinski, Darren Hyman, Gary Darling and Mike Winters.

[GarthB]

Tim (BU56 Tim, not T.Alan Tim):

Pardon the delay. Although I'm on "mid-winter" break from my teaching position, I've still found some chores around the house that need attention. However, I also found my tape. (And I really enjoyed watching it, especially the part when I "tossed" one of the instructors, Jesse Redwine, who suggested after a strike two call "Oh, I get it, you're here it to stick it up my a$$."

At the Desert Classic the routine in the cages was formal and uniform,in part so that everyone could be evaluated more easily. (I'm sure that's a carryover from the five week.)

Near the end of the warmup pitches, the umpire would stand to the right of, and slightly advanced, of the plate, holding up the right hand at about the top of the head level with the index finger raised and announce to the pitcher, "One more pitch". After the pitch, the umpire would brush the plate, turn to his right and while watching the pitcher take a couple of back steps and then get behind the catcher.

The umpire would call "play!" (right hand pointing at the pitcher). The instructor at the pitching machine would announce "on the rubber.......set", and the umpire would drop into his stance on "set."

Evans allowed heel/instep at the camp in addition to heel/toe. I was told by one instructor that Evans requires heel/toe at his 5 week school but PBUC then allows heel/instep.

The stance taught was fairly wide, not the double wide of the GD but wider than what most student were used to. Wide and a half, if you will.

The batter-side arm is positioned level across the body. I avoid using the word "tuck" because when most students tucked their arms, they pulled them too far in, which moved their shoulders off square with the pitcher and off level with the ground.

The catcher-side hand was used to help lock in position and was placed in a position on the leg just above the knee. It was not placed behind the knee. It's hard to describe precisely, but I'll try. (I stopped the tape at the point the instructor went into his stance for this example)

Look at the back side of your right hand while you have the four fingers closed and the thumb extended as far to the left as it will go. Imagine the thumb on the top of your leg and left (inside)of center. The fingers are placed on and wrap the outside of the leg. The area between the thumb and index finger falls on the top of your leg.

At no time did any of the instructors place their hand behind their knee, however, some shifted their hand so that even more fell on the side of the leg.



[Edited by GarthB on Feb 22nd, 2006 at 01:00 PM]

[gobama84]

Garth
Excellent description of what we were taught at the Florida Classic this past December.

[Blue37]

I was recently at a clinic with Chuck Meriwether, and talked stances with him. He stated his biggest concern with the Davis stance was the increased chance of a neck injury due to catching a foul flush in the mask. He said the neck has very little give with the Davis stance.

I tried it and saw that I did have less give when locked in. Have any others heard about this or experienced a neck injury on a mask shot while using the Davis stance?

[sm_bbcoach]

2 questions re: GD system

1) IF I line up on the inside corner, then how do I know where the outside corner is? Will this come with time?

2) If I understand this part, I will be looking down and trough the strike zone. How will I know where the botom is?

I am new (year 1...game 1 in 1 month) and I want to try this during our scrimmages and clinics. These are my questions to using the method as presented by the 2 poeple who are helping me..

[5050pete]

sm_bbcaoch,
I chatted with you on the football board about filling our crew's football schedule for 2006. You had said you were double booked for a game in 2006. If I remember correctly the game was at Calumet. Could you check my profile and e-mail me? I apologize for crossing over on boards, but I hate sitting in the stands on a Friday night.
Thanks,
5050pete

[Tim C]

You are simply experiencing things everyone questions:

1) If you work in the slot, higher and DEEP you will see the outside corner fine. What we see is that people that use the stance without true training set up incorrectly and never see what is there!!! Don't try to self train the stance. You will fail.

2) Same with looking "down at the zone" . . . this one I don't get . . . understand I have worked 3,800+ games and the GD stance for 5 years . . . I do not understand what "looking down" means in terms of the zone. The comment makes no sense too me but I will say this . . . calling strikes is more than seeing the "ball" . . .a real umpire reads a lot of informantion before making a call . . . if you are concernined about "looking down" do us a favor . . . go back to the traditional stance.

The GD system is for umpires that are either advanced or are open to change . . . it is silly to caompare it to a traditonal stance.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by Tim C

What we see is that people that use the stance without true training set up incorrectly and never see what is there!!! Don't try to self train the stance. You will fail.

Except that a lot of people are unable to receive training in this, Tim. There aren't many clinics around that offer this.

I'm a proponent of the GD stance after having switched from the box, but I haven't seen any training in the Chicago area in this stance.

[ToGreySt]

i'm new to umpiring also, (my first game is in a couple of weeks), and I use the box becasue that's whats taught at my clinic and I don't see how it's too hard to switch to GD. I haven't tried it, but would love to switch.

Is it really that hard to make the switch? it's just a modified version of the box right?

Joe

[jumpmaster]

don't do it. stay with the box and learn it. UNLESS there is a guy who can teach you the GD stance.

Yes - I use the GD.

[ToGreySt]

could someone please explain why it would be hard to adapt the box into the GD method. I'm sure there is something I'm missing, but the GD looks like the box, just a little higher and a few steps back.

Joe