no stretch balk?

[dflynn]

13U traveling teams. Our runner on 1b, RH pitcher does not stretch. Pitchers hands together at waist, RH foot on rubber. Hands slightly move up like going into wind-up, at very same time RH foot steps back and throws to first. R1 is stealing on hand movement up as coached, but is picked off by P move to first. R1 is out in run-down. No balk is called. Umpires say pitchers hands moving at same time his foot comes back off rubber is part of P move to first and no balk allowed. Is this a legal move by pitcher? If so, I want to add to my play list. thanx.

[PAblue87]

I may be missing something, but I think you said heis in the set. If he is engageing the rubber with his hands already together, that is before he comes set, that would be a balk. A pitcher must enter the stretch with the hands apart. If he is in the windup, and the hands go up and he is stepping off at the same time, we have a balk. The hands moving simulate the start of his delivery.

[senior]

This is a toughie unless you actually see it. Are you sure he was going from the wind-up with a runner on first?
My first read would be that most of us consider almost any movement from wind-up to be the start of the pitch. The foot movement first may make it believable.
My real concern with the question posed would be who is coaching runners to steal on hand movement up? Most (99.9%) pitchers go from the stretch with runners on, and no stop is required on a pick-off throw, only on a pitch to the batter. A good opposing manager will soon have all of your runners picked simply by starting up, then going to first immediately. Better have them wait until closer to commitment to pitch than just hand movement up.

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by PAblue87
I may be missing something, but I think you said heis in the set. If he is engageing the rubber with his hands already together, that is before he comes set, that would be a balk.

Not quite true, PAblue87 (I lived in Lancaster County once - God's Country - gorgeous - loved it!)

The requirement of the pitcher to have one hand at his side before he engages the pitcher's plate has no prescribed penalty in the Official Baseball Rules. The umpire should simply require the pitcher to start with one hand by his side.

Especially in this age group, when the pitcher engages the plate with his hands together, I would call, "Time," and instruct him to start with one hand at his side. It is unlikely that such a thing would happen at higher levels of baseball. Pitchers tend to know what they're doing by the time they reach 15 and up.

Originally posted by dflynn
13U traveling teams. Our runner on 1b, RH pitcher does not stretch. Pitchers hands together at waist, RH foot on rubber. Hands slightly move up like going into wind-up, at very same time RH foot steps back and throws to first. R1 is stealing on hand movement up as coached, but is picked off by P move to first. R1 is out in run-down. No balk is called. Umpires say pitchers hands moving at same time his foot comes back off rubber is part of P move to first and no balk allowed. Is this a legal move by pitcher? If so, I want to add to my play list. thanx.

So, for starters, dflynn's situation got off on the wrong foot. The pitcher engaged the rubber with his hands together. That should never have happened. It's no wonder everything went downhill from there.

As for the movement of the hands - if it was a slight movement, and the pivot foot disengaged at the same time, I wouldn't call a balk. For me, it would require something more substantial than, "slight." In order for a pitcher to illegally simulate the start of his motion, the movement needs to look like the start of his motion. "Slight," just doesn't cut it with me. Especially considering that the pitcher was legally disengaging at the same time!

You know, sometimes, runners just get picked off.

[Tim C]

Nailed it JIM . . . let's not make excuses for someone who simply gets "put out!"

[PAblue87]

Jim,
If after you correct the pitcher about engaging the rubber with his hands together he does it again. Now can you, or should you, balk him? What is the proper ruling here?
Thanks.

[dflynn]

gents:
just to clarify, the pitcher definately did not stretch. This is a trick play and this is the second time in our first 10 games we have seen it executed on us.
The pitchers hands are together with foot on plate and looking in as if to get sign, this is deliberate to act like he has forgotten to stretch, hands start upward movement like going into wind-up and split second later P steps off plate with lead foot and throws to first. I have ordered NFHS rule book but in the interim, can anyone give me rule # if this is a balk. thanx.
At 13U sometimes P does forget to stretch, but not very often. Our runners steal(if appropriate) when P forgets to stretch and begins wind-up. Maybe this is not correct.
What can hands do or not do once together and foot is on plate? thanx again.

[Bfair]

Did this F1 start in the windup or set position? I don't believe dflynn ever made that clear.

My guess is that the "play" dflynn is trying to describe is the old trick of stepping on the rubber in the windup position with a runner on first, disengaging and hoping that R1 will think he is starting his windup---thus the runner taking off at first hand motion as described. The results of the play and the coach's argument keep stride with that play.

If that is it, the pitcher likely balked. By stepping back with his pivot while bringing his hands upward and together, the pitcher is
(1) simulating his pitching motion while off the rubber, or
(2) starting his pitching motion while on the rubber and not delivering to the plate.

Both are balks.

Just my opinion,

Steve

[joemoore]

NFHS Rules 6-1-1 6-1-2 and 6-1-3
If from the windup (pivot foot on, free foot on or behind the rubber) NFHS is not as strict as OBR when disengaging the rubber. OBR requires hands to be placed at the side when disengaging. So, teach the kids:
"Glove hand foot - GO"
"Bare hand foot - Back"
And they don't have to watch the arms. If the arms move first, then that movement definitely commits the pitcher to pitch, but knowing umpires may miss this call, it's safer to watch the foot.

If from the "SET" position. The pitcher must engage with his pitching hand at his side. Assuming he has his hands together, he is no longer allowed to "stretch". There is no language in the rule when he is "committed to pitch", but 6-2-4(d) says it is a balk if he fails to pitch to a batter in a continuous motion immediately after any movement of any part of his body he habitually uses in his delivery.

Again, split second fakes may technically be balks, but the pitcher is allowed to disengage and throw and umpires will be reluctant to call it a balk unless it is clearly two separate movements. I would teach players to watch the feet. The non-pivot foot must step to a base before any throw or the pivot foot must step back to disengage (and throw without stepping) or both feet can move in a jump turn. In all of these cases, the pitcher cannot pitch to the batter after any of these moves.

I don't know any umpire who would call it a balk if the pitcher from the set position raised his leg and pumped his arms as if getting ready to pitch and in a continuous motion swung his leg to 2B and threw, or stepped to 1B (LH) or 3B (RH) and threw.