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Wed Nov 30, 2005, 09:00am
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The MLBUM list's situations in which another umpire should signal to his partner that he's got something for him on the play. These are to be "inconspicuous" signals used when a call is missed. Some of the guys I work with like to do this, and some think it's best just to wait for your partner to ask for help. The thought on the latter, being that too many secret signals between umpires erodes the confidence the games participants have in the crew. I'm curious as to what signals you use in these situations, and in what situations you use them in. That's if you use them at all. Tim. |
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Wed Nov 30, 2005, 10:24am
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Let's see,
Ya I just looked it up:
This is the 937th time this issue has been discussed on this website. The instant an umpire uses a secret signal it will eventually not be secret much longer. All secret signals do is give the observant rat a heads up that there is a problem. NEVER EVER think of using secret signals . . . use the signals as expected and watch your umpire career advance. T |
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Wed Nov 30, 2005, 10:27am
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In NY, when a base umpire has something for one of his partners he will stand in his normal position with his hat in his hand extended by his leg. When the plate umpire has something for the base umpire, he will keep his mask on and place his hands inside his ball bags (If he only wears one bag, he puts the other hand at his side). Not every umpire in my area uses these signals, but we all know what they mean. I think they are pretty inconspicuous, yet effective.
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Wed Nov 30, 2005, 11:16am
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In this area if the base umpire thinks he his view of a play from 90 + feet away was better than the plate umpire who was properly postioned and made the call, he stands on one leg and hops up and down, points with one hand to left field and rubs his crotch with the other hand while yelling, "ask me, ask me!"
On the other hand, when the plate umpire just knows he's got the play at second better than the base umpire, he puts his hand in his ball bag, grabs a ball and flings it at the BU, while holding a road flare between his teeth. Pretty inconspicous, and seems to works well for those who need them. The rest of us respond with what we have when we are asked. Yeah, I know, old school, but those of us using this method, strangely enough, have smoother games.
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GB |
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Wed Nov 30, 2005, 11:39am
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I haven't been doing this as long as T or Garth has, but there are a few things I do know.
If you go to your partner once with extraneous information without being asked for it you will be doing it on every close or questionable call he has. If my partner comes up to me and tells me "oh if I have something for you on a call, I'll do this". I'll tell him to go ahead, I won't see it. I'll also tell him that if I need his help, I'll ask him for it. Like T and Garth said, don't use them.
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Allen |
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Wed Nov 30, 2005, 12:04pm
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One of our "more seasoned" umpires uses a special IFF signal when he is working with a newbie. It always gets a laugh in the "post game".
 ............................................. ..................../´¯/).................. .................,/¯../..................... ................/..../....................... ........./``/´¯/'---'/´¯¯`¸............ ......../'/.../..../......./¨¯\............. .......('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...').......... ........\.................'...../............ .........''...\.......... _.´.............. ...........\..............(................ .............\.............\................
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When in doubt, bang 'em out! Ozzy |
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Wed Nov 30, 2005, 01:05pm
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Quote:
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Wed Nov 30, 2005, 01:40pm
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Old school guys might say that you don't say anything until asked. That's the way it has been for about 10,000 years BUT now things are changing. Umpire clinics are teaching that IF you have something that will help your partner you should let him know, even unsolicited. The important thing is to get the call right.
I tell my partner(s) that if they have something that might help me to take their caps off and I will do the same for them. It hasn't caused a problem for me and it has even helped a couple of times. Here's instructions from the 2005 NCAA Div. I Champ. Game Officials Manual: 6.11 C) In the situations listed below, a partner who is 100% certain he has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information. However, the ultimate decision to change a call rests with the calling umpire. 1. Deciding if a home run is fair or foul. 2. Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or ground rule double. 3. Cases where a foul tip is dropped or trapped by the catcher. 4. Cases where a foul fly ball is caught or not caught. 5. Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because they did not see the ball dropped or juggled after making a tag or force. 6. Spectator interference plays. 7. Balks called by an umpire who clearly did not realize the pitcher�s foot was off the rubber. F) Judgment calls, which have traditionally not been subject to reversal, include: steal and other tag plays (except if the ball is dropped without the umpire's knowledge as discussed above); force plays (when the ball is not dropped and the foot is not pulled); balls and strikes (other than check swings). This practice shall continue. Also, some calls cannot be reversed without creating larger problems. An example is a 'catch/no catch' with multiple runners. Overall, umpires are urged to seek help on reversible plays in which they may have erred by not seeing a crucial element of a play. Such meetings, while necessary, should be infrequent and not become a substitute for umpires seeking proper angles, exercising sound judgment, and having the conviction to stay with a call that an umpire believes was properly made. |
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Wed Nov 30, 2005, 02:12pm
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Did this thread take a strange twist, or is it justme?
This thread was not started as debate of "getting" the calls right, or even offering help. The thread began as a question regarding double super secret signals. My experience over the years has been similar to Tee's: Secret signals do not remain secret for long and can cause umpires grief. In reference to your subject, of course there are instances, particulary homerun/ground rule double decisions, in which umpires will offer assistance. If you've noticed the recent changes at the NCAA and ML level, these do not involve "secret" signals.
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GB |
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Wed Nov 30, 2005, 02:27pm
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The only "secret" signal I can think of that I use with partners I'm VERY familiar with is more the reverse of what you're talking about. As PU, I'm not making any sort of signal to BU (or to the world) to alert him (and the world) that I think he botched a call - and vice versa as the BU.
However, having worked with 3 or 4 guys on many occasions, if the BU is calling a plate at 1st base, for example, and HE (not I) thinks there is a possibility for a pulled foot that he missed because of an unanticipated straight-line, during his normal hesitation between the play and the call, he'll glance at me (PU). If I am 100% sure I saw a foot pulled, I'll quickly lift my foot (looks like a small, quick step in place), and HE'll make the safe call, and then point at the foot saying "Pulled his foot", or something along those lines. With no footpull (or at least not 100%), I stand still, and he makes the normal out call, then also knowing that if the coach asks him to check with me, he can tell the coach he already did, and the call stands. But this is really just shorthand for us and looks cleaner than calling him out, and then asking more obviously (to the world) if PU saw a foot pull. I know there are a few here that NEVER ask partner for help. I see the straightlined footpull and the straightlined swipe tag as two clear instances that even the BEST umpire knows he may have missed once every year or two.
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"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson |
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Wed Nov 30, 2005, 02:27pm
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Quote:
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GB |
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Wed Nov 30, 2005, 02:34pm
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*** Did this thread take a strange twist, or is it justme? ***
Relax GB, I didn't mean to pee in your Wheaties. I wasn't aware that you were limiting the subject matter. Next reply I make, just skip over it.... you'll have a less stressful day. |
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Wed Nov 30, 2005, 03:59pm
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Quote:
You did, however, make a direct reference to the "old school" line that I had included in a post that was made in reply to the thread's subject. You then attempted to conclude those "old schoolers" were not in agreement with making sure the correct call was made. I was merely correcting your assumptions...just keeping you honest. When replying to a post, it's alwasy best to actually reply to wjat others say instead of putting your words in their mouths. If you'd like to change topics, no problem. This new fangled technology allows you to start a thread. It's not all that hard to do if you're not too busy trying to find strange places to pee. [Edited by GarthB on Nov 30th, 2005 at 04:12 PM]
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GB |
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Wed Nov 30, 2005, 05:21pm
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"When replying to a post, it's alwasy best to actually reply to wjat others say instead of putting your words in their mouths."
I love that line. Where did you see it recently? (Typos were intentional by Garth; as Pete in AZ can attest, being a teacher doesn't mean you can't be creative with the language.  )[Edited by WhatWuzThatBlue on Nov 30th, 2005 at 05:26 PM]
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"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. ~Naguib Mahfouz |
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