Ditched my indicator for good.

[Diamondgal]

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve

ASA,

Believe or not I know a couple umpires who quit wearing a cup because they felt more comfortable. Wait until they take one in the jewels!!! One of those same guys also wears base shoes working the plate. I guess he likes tempting fate, but it seems nuts to me.

If someone can work the dish without an indicator, go for it. I left mine home once, and worked the game without it, but I didn't care for it much at all.

Most umpires I know do not use indicators on the bases, but for new guys it probably is a good idea.

Earlier in my "career" I worked a JV game that I didn't feel like putting on my plate shoes. The catcher missed one that smacked my big toe head on. The poor toenail never grew back right.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by ASA/NYSSOBLUE
even though I am 'only' a softball ump, I find not using an indicator incredulous- do you also not wear a cup behind the dish because youve never gotten hit in the conjones??? To also say 'I've only forgotten the counts/outs a couple of times' is close to blasephmy as far as I am concerned- there you have failed in THE most basic part of your job....

And to call those who ARE trying to do the job properly names only reinforces what I think is nothing but ego driven hubris (look it up!)-there IS gonna be a time its gonna cost ya..we drill that into our newbies in our clinic ALL the time-ALWAYS be prepared....and that includes an INDICATOR...I dont care how good your memory supposedly is..and how many scoreboards there are at the ballpark-YOUR scoreboard (the indicator) is the only PROOF of the count/outs-many times I use it to show a batter- yes, it was a strike..this thing only goes ONE way...

and on the bases it is so automatic I call an out,I click an out with the other hand,even on both ends of a DP...wow...real tough

I always wonder if those who dont use indicators are the same ones who never look at their speedometers.....or who never ask directions,as they KNOW where they are going....

I consider it a SKILL to be able to use an indicator...and walk at the same time....

Wow, I can see already that you don't let the little stupid things get you going. I am sorry for you. Please inform us of all of your other talents too, so that we can change our evil ways. It must be something about the size of the balls here, or maybe it's the water.

Listen , some of us more talented individuals have mastered your hubris skill with your indicator, and have moved on to other things. Just because your talents are limited, well, it would be a pretty strange world if we all did everything the same. I am sorry to have to break that bad news to you. I hope that doesn't upset you again though.

Have a good Day!

[Justme]

Indicator: To use or not to use, that is the question.

I'm a user, both as a PU and a BU. I have been using one for so long (I'm an old guy) that I rarely notice it. I remember the counts (most of the time) but should I have a momentary "old guy" moment and forget the count it's nice to be able to glance at my indicator (especially when working alone). When I'm on bases I just automatically hang on to my indicator with my thumb pressing it against my palm when making my safe mechanic. Never a problem and I'll bet you that no one notices that my left thumb is slightly under my hand.

Indicator: To use or not to use, my answer.

It doesn’t matter; do what’s most comfortable for you just don't aything that may humiliate you.

[Tim C]

You can always count on information from softball umpires.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by ASA/NYSSOBLUE
even though I am 'only' a softball ump, I find not using an indicator incredulous- do you also not wear a cup behind the dish because youve never gotten hit in the conjones??? To also say 'I've only forgotten the counts/outs a couple of times' is close to blasephmy as far as I am concerned- there you have failed in THE most basic part of your job....

And to call those who ARE trying to do the job properly names only reinforces what I think is nothing but ego driven hubris (look it up!)-there IS gonna be a time its gonna cost ya..we drill that into our newbies in our clinic ALL the time-ALWAYS be prepared....and that includes an INDICATOR...I dont care how good your memory supposedly is..and how many scoreboards there are at the ballpark-YOUR scoreboard (the indicator) is the only PROOF of the count/outs-many times I use it to show a batter- yes, it was a strike..this thing only goes ONE way...

and on the bases it is so automatic I call an out,I click an out with the other hand,even on both ends of a DP...wow...real tough

I always wonder if those who dont use indicators are the same ones who never look at their speedometers.....or who never ask directions,as they KNOW where they are going....

I consider it a SKILL to be able to use an indicator...and walk at the same time....

Hey in New York do you get a new mask and gun each season?

[DownTownTonyBrown]

To use one or not use on has similar faults....

You cleared it? Did you actually click up that passed ball... or not? Was that two clicks or one? Wait he swung at that; I clicked up a ball didn't I? Is my counter correct? Is my memory correct? Is this the same batter. Did I clear this before we started.

I have not used one for about 4 years. And during those years I have forgotten the count repeatedly just as I forgot in earlier years whether I clicked up the passed ball or cleared the clicker following a rundown, etc.

The counter is a crutch and it can give you false information if it is not operated correctly/methodically. What's new?

Hubris? Arrogance. Use one or don't use one, either way you can be hubristic. See, right there on my clicker. THAT'S THE COUNT. Sure it is.

The players are responsible for knowing the situation too. In fact there is nothing in written down in my NFHS responsibilities as an umpire that says I need to keep the count. I do and personnally, I do it by memory.

I've had better luck with memory than I have with memory AND a counter.

One thing I do miss with not having an idiot-clicker-thing-a-ma-bob is I used to be able to say to the first batter, "Well my clicker shows a count of 1 and 2 with 2 outs; so jump in there Batter, and think big zone."

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

The players are responsible for knowing the situation too. In fact there is nothing in written down in my NFHS responsibilities as an umpire that says I need to keep the count. I do and personnally, I do it by memory.

2005 & 2006 NFHS Umpires Manual (p.12)

Under VI. Plate Umpire

"It is important that the count be known and if the board has it wrong, announce the correct count and show it with the fingers."

Sounds like the NFHS expects the PU to keep track of the count to me. If you weren't keeping track of the count how would you know if it was ball four or strike three? You certainly have the responsibility for knowing *that*, wouldn't you say?

* * *

Forgetting to operate or failing to operate the indicator correctly isn't much different than not using an indicator and simply failing to remember the count/outs - is it?

In fact, sometimes I'll do something wrong with my indicator and I'll catch it because I have remembered the count and then I correct my indicator. And then, there are times when I'm not sure of the count and I look at my indicator and think, "Whew!"

Like I said, if you should ever get the count wrong (and you will!), and you are not using an indicator ... and your partner is also not keeping track ... and the two teams adamantly disagree on the count ... and they discover that you are not using an indicator ... you will have lost MORE credibility than you would normally lose for mismanaging the situation. They will think you are lazy (or forgetful) by not having the tools of your trade.

As an umpire myself, I won't think you're lazy. I'll realize that you're just one of those umpires who do not use an indicator ... by choice. But, again, that is *not* what the fans, players, and coaches will be thinking. If that's not important to you - then it's not an issue one way or the other.

Again, I don't think it's a big deal. I know umpires that do it both ways and everybody seems to do a fine job. I'm just saying that when your nightmare becomes a reality (and it probably never will - at least that's what Doug Eddings thought about his plate mechanics), the situation will be greatly magnified when it is discovered you were only relying on your memory and not using an indicator.

Like I said earlier: For an experienced umpire - do what makes you most comfortable. For a new umpire - I strongly urge you to use an indicator.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by David Emerling

2005 & 2006 NFHS Umpires Manual (p.12)

Under VI. Plate Umpire

"It is important that the count be known and if the board has it wrong, announce the correct count and show it with the fingers."

Sounds like the NFHS expects the PU to keep track of the count to me. If you weren't keeping track of the count how would you know if it was ball four or strike three? You certainly have the responsibility for knowing *that*, wouldn't you say?

* * *

Forgetting to operate or failing to operate the indicator correctly isn't much different than not using an indicator and simply failing to remember the count/outs - is it?

In fact, sometimes I'll do something wrong with my indicator and I'll catch it because I have remembered the count and then I correct my indicator. And then, there are times when I'm not sure of the count and I look at my indicator and think, "Whew!"

Like I said, if you should ever get the count wrong (and you will!), and you are not using an indicator ... and your partner is also not keeping track ... and the two teams adamantly disagree on the count ... and they discover that you are not using an indicator ... you will have lost MORE credibility than you would normally lose for mismanaging the situation. They will think you are lazy (or forgetful) by not having the tools of your trade.

As an umpire myself, I won't think you're lazy. I'll realize that you're just one of those umpires who do not use an indicator ... by choice. But, again, that is *not* what the fans, players, and coaches will be thinking. If that's not important to you - then it's not an issue one way or the other.

Again, I don't think it's a big deal. I know umpires that do it both ways and everybody seems to do a fine job. I'm just saying that when your nightmare becomes a reality (and it probably never will - at least that's what Doug Eddings thought about his plate mechanics), the situation will be greatly magnified when it is discovered you were only relying on your memory and not using an indicator.

Like I said earlier: For an experienced umpire - do what makes you most comfortable. For a new umpire - I strongly urge you to use an indicator.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Hey Dave, Have you ever "lost the count" with an indicator?
I know the answer is yes. With or without if s$$t happens because of a lost count you'll look like a horses a$$ so what's the difference?

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by gordon30307

Hey Dave, Have you ever "lost the count" with an indicator?
I know the answer is yes. With or without if s$$t happens because of a lost count you'll look like a horses a$$ so what's the difference?

Sure I have!

The difference is that you can be either a horse's a$$ with an indicator or a horse's a$$ without an indicator.

The game participants (and fans) will think you're a complete a$$ when they discover you don't bother trying to keep track with an indicator and are relying only on the infallibility of your memory ... at their expense.

That's the reality of it.

Now, if you're the type that boldly claims, "I don't give a crap what they think!" Fine - fair enough. But it has been my experience that umpires who adopt that as a philosophy usually create more difficulties for themselves than there needs to be. I find polishing my shoes all the time an incredible pain in the a$$, yet I do it. Why?

But then again, if you're a well known, respected, and experienced umpire, you probably have nothing to be concerned about. It will just be a minor bump in the road. A rookie umpire, on the other hand, I don't think will fair as well.

So, I'll keep reiterating what I've said all along. If you're an experienced umpire, do whatever floats your boat. If you're a rookie, I strongly urge you to use an indicator and get good at using it so that it becomes second nature.

Hell, by all means, if your game suffers when you use an indicator - throw the damn thing away!

When an umpire finds using an indicator distracting, to me, that's like a violinist finding their bow distracting while playing in a concert.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Nov 1st, 2005 at 11:46 AM]

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by David Emerling

Sure I have!

The difference is that you can be either a horse's a$$ with an indicator or a horse's a$$ without an indicator.

The game participants (and fans) will think you're a complete a$$ when they discover you don't bother trying to keep track with an indicator and are relying only on the infallibility of your memory ... at their expense.

That's the reality of it.

Now, if you're the type that boldly claims, "I don't give a crap what they think!" Fine - fair enough. But it has been my experience that umpires who adopt that as a philosophy usually create more difficulties for themselves than there needs to be. I find polishing my shoes all the time an incredible pain in the a$$, yet I do it. Why?

But then again, if you're a well known, respected, and experienced umpire, you probably have nothing to be concerned about. It will just be a minor bump in the road. A rookie umpire, on the other hand, I don't think will fair as well.

So, I'll keep reiterating what I've said all along. If you're an experienced umpire, do whatever floats your boat. If you're a rookie, I strongly urge you to use an indicator and get good at using it so that it becomes second nature.

Hell, by all means, if your game suffers when you use an indicator - throw the damn thing away!

When an umpire finds using an indicator distracting, to me, that's like a violinist finding their bow distracting while playing in a concert.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Nov 1st, 2005 at 11:46 AM]

Hi Dave:

Fortunately for me I've never been involved in a game where a controversey has occurred because of a lost count etc. Nor have I ever heard of this happening to any of my peers.
As to what fans think, I know that I generally have a 50% approval rating which I'm quite happy with. Actually I could give a "rats a**" what fans think. I'm not there to please them. Actually if I'm not noticed by anyone (except my fellow officials) I'm quite happy.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by gordon30307
Hi Dave:

Fortunately for me I've never been involved in a game where a controversey has occurred because of a lost count etc. Nor have I ever heard of this happening to any of my peers.
As to what fans think, I know that I generally have a 50% approval rating which I'm quite happy with. Actually I could give a "rats a**" what fans think. I'm not there to please them. Actually if I'm not noticed by anyone (except my fellow officials) I'm quite happy.

I've umpired games where I've screwed it up before, and when it was brought to my attention, it was quickly rectified. No big deal. It's usually something simple like I forget to click over the indicator.

However, I've been in games (not as an umpire, but as a coach) where the count *was* screwed up. The umpire calls "Ball 3" and our side says, "Hey, that's ball FOUR!" The PU maintains that it's only 3. Our scorekeeper agrees that it was 4 while the other scorekeeper is understandably silent on the issue. When asked, the other scorekeeper simply shrugs his shoulders. So, we ask that the umpire ask his partner who, agrees with US. That's 4. Now the umpires are in disagreement. It's a mess.

This kind of stuff can happen with or without an indicator.

Yet, I maintain, it's better to screw it up WITH an indicator than WITHOUT.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

And I've seen this on several occasions.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by David Emerling

I've umpired games where I've screwed it up before, and when it was brought to my attention, it was quickly rectified. No big deal. It's usually something simple like I forget to click over the indicator.

However, I've been in games (not as an umpire, but as a coach) where the count *was* screwed up. The umpire calls "Ball 3" and our side says, "Hey, that's ball FOUR!" The PU maintains that it's only 3. Our scorekeeper agrees that it was 4 while the other scorekeeper is understandably silent on the issue. When asked, the other scorekeeper simply shrugs his shoulders. So, we ask that the umpire ask his partner who, agrees with US. That's 4. Now the umpires are in disagreement. It's a mess.

This kind of stuff can happen with or without an indicator.

Yet, I maintain, it's better to screw it up WITH an indicator than WITHOUT.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

And I've seen this on several occasions.

Hi Dave,

In the situation that you described above if your scorekeeper (I'm assuming that you're the home team) and his partner agreed it was ball four and he didn't award first base than he's knuckle head. This can happen with or without an indicator. I've had this happen to me and if my partner is positive (I always trust my partner) his count is correct I'll change the count and we play on. Hey it happens to everyone.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by gordon30307

Hi Dave,

In the situation that you described above if your scorekeeper (I'm assuming that you're the home team) and his partner agreed it was ball four and he didn't award first base than he's knuckle head. This can happen with or without an indicator. I've had this happen to me and if my partner is positive (I always trust my partner) his count is correct I'll change the count and we play on. Hey it happens to everyone.

Maybe you misunderstood the scenario.

Our team is at bat.

The next pitch is thrown.

PU calls it "Ball THREE!"

We maintain that it was ball FOUR. The batter should walk.

The opinion held by everybody was ...

Our team ... ball FOUR

Our scorekeeper ... ball FOUR

Their team ... [silence]

Their scorekeeper ... "Uh, I'm not sure."

PU ... ball THREE

BU ... ball FOUR

The bottom line is that the two umpires didn't agree.

It happens. The umpires worked it out and still got it wrong, but there's really nothing we could do about it.

It happens. And the point of my story is that I've seen this happen several times over the years. Quite frankly I never bothered to notice whether the PU was using an indicator or not but that's mostly because I didn't really care all that much about the situation. It wasn't like the game was on the line.

But *HAD* the game been on the line and it got screwed up ... at some point in the dispute I would be curious WHAT the umpire had on his indicator. If the answer is, "What indicator?" - I'm not too impressed.

What? You don't own one?

You don't think you NEED one? Apparently you DO!

To me, when things get screwed up (and I'll agree they can get screwed up with or without an indicator), it is just WORSE without an indicator.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by David Emerling

Maybe you misunderstood the scenario.

Our team is at bat.

The next pitch is thrown.

PU calls it "Ball THREE!"

We maintain that it was ball FOUR. The batter should walk.

The opinion held by everybody was ...

Our team ... ball FOUR

Our scorekeeper ... ball FOUR

Their team ... [silence]

Their scorekeeper ... "Uh, I'm not sure."

PU ... ball THREE

BU ... ball FOUR

The bottom line is that the two umpires didn't agree.

It happens. The umpires worked it out and still got it wrong, but there's really nothing we could do about it.

It happens. And the point of my story is that I've seen this happen several times over the years. Quite frankly I never bothered to notice whether the PU was using an indicator or not but that's mostly because I didn't really care all that much about the situation. It wasn't like the game was on the line.

But *HAD* the game been on the line and it got screwed up ... at some point in the dispute I would be curious WHAT the umpire had on his indicator. If the answer is, "What indicator?" - I'm not too impressed.

What? You don't own one?

You don't think you NEED one? Apparently you DO!

To me, when things get screwed up (and I'll agree they can get screwed up with or without an indicator), it is just WORSE without an indicator.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

I understood.