First 2 EJ's of my career

[largeone59]

I posted this on another forum and i'd like to get some of your opinions on this forum:

EJ #1 - This one was by rule. Runner plowed over the catcher.... Gone

EJ #2 - Base umpire had several close plays that all went against the same team. Naturally, they were moaning and complaining. "We're getting screwed. This guy's terrible" and more were coming from the stands. A play happens in the third and the assistant takes a step out of the dugout (which is within a close proximity to home plate) and says "can we appeal that? i say "appeal what?" he says "the call." i say "no, i can't overrule my partner." he says "but come on, that was obvious." I say "he was on top of it and he made the call. end of discussion."

Later, another close tag play happened at third. They all go ballistic. Same assistant says "Can we appeal THAT!?" i say "no, i can't. what makes what i see right and what he sees wrong?" then he says "Because HE can't see!!!" .... Gone

We were then approached by a swarm of fathers after the game- they were all mainly yelling at him though.

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So for #2, would you have ejected him for that? Thoughts? Comments?

[bbump82]

As far as your two sit's, the first one is a no brainer.
The second one seems like a HTBT. I would have to consider the mood of the coach, how the comment was delivered, ..., before I could make a call on that one. My inclination would be to let him stay, till it got worse.

As for the crowd in the parking lot, I would have told them that if they have a complaint, to send it to the league. If they pressed to discuss it any farther, I'd get in my car and call 911.

[DG]

Originally posted by largeone59
So for #2, would you have ejected him for that? Thoughts? Comments?

I have not had that many words with an assistant all year. I mainly ignore them. But if one came out of the dugout to argue, my short discussion with him would be about getting back in the dugout, not about what he came out to argue about. So I certainly support tossing him on his second offense.

[Edited by DG on Aug 7th, 2005 at 09:36 PM]

[jicecone]

First of all, as explained I have no problem with the ejections. Papa Childress lists one of the ways in how to ruin a baseball game as being, "Not supporting you Partner."

Now, I do not think that you should have made the decision about the appeal, for your partner. After all, you did tell the coach it was his call. You didn't want to overrule your partner but, you just did.

In fact, assuming OBR rules, 9.02b allows a manager to appeal "only to the umpire that made the protested decision." It is then his perogative to ask his partners for help or say my call was final. Not yours.

And for those against "Group Hugs" prior to "getting the call right," at the end of 9.02, "General Instructions To Umpires", it clearly states , "Umpire dignity is important but never as important as "being right"."

[drumbum565]

Originally posted by DG

I have not had that many words with an assistant all year. I mainly ignore them. But if one came out of the dugout to argue, my short discussion with him would be about getting back in the dugout, not about what he came out to argue about. So I certainly support tossing him on his second offense.

[Edited by DG on Aug 7th, 2005 at 09:36 PM]

I agree with DG if an assitant coach comes out of the dugout and starts talking to me even if i know he is not i will say "Sir, stop right there. Are you the maniger?" they will replie "no" and i will then say " Then get back in the dugout or leave" then i will deal with the maniger.

In turn i also agree with DG about your ejection i might have qouted back to him 10-1-4 in FED about an umpires judgement and he might have retorted back resulting in an earlier ejection but you handled the situation corectly.

[DG]

Originally posted by largeone59
We were then approached by a swarm of fathers after the game- they were all mainly yelling at him though.

I was behind the plate for a state finals game 2 weekends ago, 6 man crew. Bottom of the 8th, home team one run behind. R1 and R2, two outs. The final out was made when R2 was thrown out at 3B on a double steal attempt. The umpire who made the call at 3B was the only one on the crew from the same town as the losing team. As I walked out wondering what was on their mind to try a double steal, when the tieing run was in scoring position, I noted that many of the home fans were making bad comments to the 3B umpire as he left the field.

Stay away from and/or ignore the fans after the game. If you feel threatened get in your car and leave. You can meet your partner for postgame somewhere nearby, like at a convenience store.

[Thaal]

Every coach/ manager knows, or should know, that one umpire can not over rule another.
In stating that fact in your reply you are inferring you disagree with the call.
Backing up your partner correctly indicates you are a team working together.
Your intension may have been to defuse the situation, but the result, as you stated, was very different.
If you had directed the manager to you partner, being the guy that made the call, he could have come to you for help, or dealt with the situation himself. You said latter that you don’t know what your partner saw, give him a chance to explain it. If you need to step in to help out an inexperience umpire, do it when he needs help.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by largeone59
A play happens in the third and the assistant takes a step out of the dugout (which is within a close proximity to home plate) and says "can we appeal that? i say "appeal what?" he says "the call." i say "no, i can't overrule my partner."

A better answer would have been "No."

Saying "I can't overrule my partner" implies to the rats that you'd like to, but your hands are tied by rule.

Your further comments were more supportive of your partner, but the line I quoted above is ambiguous in its meaning and likely fed the fire of the requests you kept getting.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by jicecone


In fact, assuming OBR rules, 9.02b allows a manager to appeal "only to the umpire that made the protested decision." It is then his perogative to ask his partners for help or say my call was final. Not yours.

Jicecone,

9.02b is irrelevant in this scenario. 9.02b talks about Rule interpretations not JUDGEMENT calls like safes/outs which is what the thread is about.

There is nothing to protest and nothing to appeal. One team was dissatisfied with the call of OUT/SAFE. Nothing in the thread at least the way I read it, indicated anything about the BU misapplying a rule which is what 9.02b is about.

Other than Rule interps the only other rule in which a coach can request an appeal is on the check swing called a ball.

Pete Booth

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by largeone59

A play happens in the third and the assistant takes a step out of the dugout (which is within a close proximity to home plate) and says "can we appeal that?


First off do not to talk to an assistant coach unless during the plate conference the manager says that so and so will be handling all baseball related issues.

Since you did answer him a Simple NO is all that is required.

Same assistant says "Can we appeal THAT!?" i say "no, i can't. what makes what i see right and what he sees wrong?" then he says "Because HE can't see!!!"

See what happens when you do not "take of business" in the beginning. As umpires unless a coach asks for an explanation of a rule interp, do not engage in dialogue. A stern NO in the beginning would probably have stopped the coaches from their constant dialogue with you concerning the appeals.

Once a Coach KNOWS you will not bend and are backing your partner, they will stop asking you for an over-turn or an appeal.

Side Note: If a group of Parents approached you in the manner in which you claim, hopefully you filed a report with the league you umpire in and also your assignor.

No matter what the calls were when the GAME is OVER IT's OVER and Parents should not follow umpires to their cars.

Pete Booth

[jicecone]

Originally posted by PeteBooth
Originally posted by jicecone


In fact, assuming OBR rules, 9.02b allows a manager to appeal "only to the umpire that made the protested decision." It is then his perogative to ask his partners for help or say my call was final. Not yours.

Jicecone,

9.02b is irrelevant in this scenario. 9.02b talks about Rule interpretations not JUDGEMENT calls like safes/outs which is what the thread is about.

There is nothing to protest and nothing to appeal. One team was dissatisfied with the call of OUT/SAFE. Nothing in the thread at least the way I read it, indicated anything about the BU misapplying a rule which is what 9.02b is about.

Other than Rule interps the only other rule in which a coach can request an appeal is on the check swing called a ball.

Pete Booth

Peter, I can't disagree with you one bit however, if it was truly the case and enforced by the letter of the law, Boston MAY, have not won the series last year. A judgement call was made and overturned.

Rule 9.02 is clear about judgement calls and in fact, it says that the manager is suppose to be ejected if they do protest. But when there is "reasonable doubt," and the manager handles it properly, does he get tossed. No, and you know it. Sounds like were taking a hard lined stand to an ambigious rule.

Yes it may have been just a tag play, but instead of taking and adversarial approach, how about directing the coach to his partner, the one that made the call. Being a harda$$ may make some officils feel good about the job they do but, is it truly necessary in every game?

Maybe it's just me!!

[PeteBooth]

But when there is "reasonable doubt," and the manager handles it properly, does he get tossed. No, and you know it. Sounds like were taking a hard lined stand to an ambigious rule.

Yes it may have been just a tag play, but instead of taking and adversarial approach, how about directing the coach to his partner, the one that made the call. Being a harda$$ may make some officils feel good about the job they do but, is it truly necessary in every game?

IMO, you need to read the thread again.

1. The assistant coach was the one who came out NOT the Manager

Therefore, right "off the bat" we have improper protocol on the part of the team. In addition, again according to the thread the BU was taking "heat" all game long.

IMO, you are trying to "stretch" rule 9.02b and compare it to the amateur game where there is only 2 of us.

Reality: Any coach worth his "wait in salt" would ask for Time and ask to speak to the umpire who made the call and not "dance around the issue."

I guess we have a difference of opinion, but when it comes to Balls/Strikes and Safes/Outs do not Over-step your boundaries and the aforementioned thread dealt with an Out/Safe call no more no less.

As far as the tossing goes again PLEASE read the thread again. The assistant coach said "Because he can't see" meaning he now made it Personal.

General speaking I agree with some of your comments but I was simply responding to the thread at hand in which 9.02b does not come inot play.

Pete Booth

[tmp44]

Originally posted by drumbum565



I agree with DG if an assitant coach comes out of the dugout and starts talking to me even if i know he is not i will say "Sir, stop right there. Are you the maniger?" they will replie "no" and i will then say " Then get back in the dugout or leave" then i will deal with the maniger.

You would seriously say this? WOW.

You know drumbum, I don't think this has ever been discussed on here...but just so we all know...how old are you and how many years experience do you have?

[jicecone]

Originally posted by PeteBooth


As far as the tossing goes again PLEASE read the thread again. The assistant coach said "Because he can't see" meaning he now made it Personal.


Pete Booth

And I also agreed with the ejections.

Handling the situation, MAY, have been different.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by tmp44

You would seriously say this? WOW.

You know drumbum, I don't think this has ever been discussed on here...but just so we all know...how old are you and how many years experience do you have?

I got to stand up for drumbum on this.

The assistant steps comes out to argue, drumbum cuts him off and tells him to get off the field, or leave (ejected.) What is wrong with that?

It has been discussed before. Remember when he was getting in fights with players before he got on the field? It was HS aged players, in a rec league.

This is probally dad coached, and with real coaches, the assistants would not come out to argue, and if they did they would be ejected before they got all the way to him. But if he wants to warn the dad first, what is wrong with that?