Little League "Chatter"

[Illini_Ref]

I umpired a Little League State Tournament game last night. The defense was instituting the time honored tradition of yelling "hey batter" with each pitch. I really don't see a problem with this, but the opposing coach did, and asked me about it. I told him that as long as the kids didn't use names, or say anything derogatory, that I didn't have a problem with it. This is what the rules state:

4.06- No manager, coach or player, shall at any time, whether from the bench or the playing field or elsewhere -

(1) incite, or try to incite, by word or sign, a demonstration by spectators;

(2) use language which will in any manner refer to or reflect upon opposing players, manager, coach, an umpire or spectators;

Now, does #2 mean they can't do it? They were referring to and opposing player. What do you think?

[TBBlue]

Originally posted by Illini_Ref
I umpired a Little League State Tournament game last night. The defense was instituting the time honored tradition of yelling "hey batter" with each pitch. I really don't see a problem with this, but the opposing coach did, and asked me about it. I told him that as long as the kids didn't use names, or say anything derogatory, that I didn't have a problem with it. This is what the rules state:

4.06- No manager, coach or player, shall at any time, whether from the bench or the playing field or elsewhere -

(1) incite, or try to incite, by word or sign, a demonstration by spectators;

(2) use language which will in any manner refer to or reflect upon opposing players, manager, coach, an umpire or spectators;

Now, does #2 mean they can't do it? They were referring to and opposing player. What do you think?

Can't do it. "Hey batter" is refering to the opposing team. They can be as loud as they want (whether the umpire likes it or not), but they need to come up with ways not to refer to the other team. It's really not hard to do, most teams refer to their pitcher's number in "cheering" him on...loud enough and with different cadences, obviously to mess with the batter. From the dugout they'll refer to their batter's number the same way to mess with the pitcher.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by Illini_Ref
I umpired a Little League State Tournament game last night. The defense was instituting the time honored tradition of yelling "hey batter" with each pitch. I really don't see a problem with this, but the opposing coach did, and asked me about it. I told him that as long as the kids didn't use names, or say anything derogatory, that I didn't have a problem with it. This is what the rules state:

4.06- No manager, coach or player, shall at any time, whether from the bench or the playing field or elsewhere -

(1) incite, or try to incite, by word or sign, a demonstration by spectators;

(2) use language which will in any manner refer to or reflect upon opposing players, manager, coach, an umpire or spectators;

Now, does #2 mean they can't do it? They were referring to and opposing player. What do you think?

I think it reads quite clearly that they can't do what you were allowing. I also don't think that this is new to baseball. So the "time honored tradition," may not be as long as you believe it to be.

Oh, and it doesn't say the language has to be english either.

[BigUmp56]

Originally posted by Illini_Ref
I umpired a Little League State Tournament game last night. The defense was instituting the time honored tradition of yelling "hey batter" with each pitch. I really don't see a problem with this, but the opposing coach did, and asked me about it. I told him that as long as the kids didn't use names, or say anything derogatory, that I didn't have a problem with it. This is what the rules state:

4.06- No manager, coach or player, shall at any time, whether from the bench or the playing field or elsewhere -

(1) incite, or try to incite, by word or sign, a demonstration by spectators;

(2) use language which will in any manner refer to or reflect upon opposing players, manager, coach, an umpire or spectators;

Now, does #2 mean they can't do it? They were referring to and opposing player. What do you think?

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________

I have attended the LL Central Region umpiring school, and this was addressed. We were told that as long as F5 or F3 were not charging the plate while doing this, it was to be allowed. We were however instructed to stop F2 from yelling " swing " when the ball reached the plate.

I have attended numerous rules clinics in the Babe Ruth organization, and certify to call their games as well. Several years ago I brought up this subject, and was instructed in the same manner.

I just started doing NFHS, and I am not sure as to their approach to this within their organization.


Tim.

[jicecone]

"LL Central Region umpiring school"

Well it seems like they took it upon theirselfs to change the rules to their likeing. Then they went one step further and taught it to you.

The rule wasn't written in spainish, and it certainly doesn't need a big time ruling from a judge or supreme court. But, the "LL Central Region umpiring school" decided that it doesn't say what it says.

Just freaking amazing!

Well, I can tell you quite simply how NHFS handles intimidation and taunting tactics.

It is just NOT put up with.

[tcarilli]

Can't do it. "Hey batter" is refering to the opposing team.

As Roger the shrubber remarked to King Arthur,

"Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say 'ni' at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land. Nothing is sacred..."

At least the defense is not shouting 'ni' at will to old batters, then there certainly would be a pestilence upon this land.

[UmpJM]

Illini_Ref,

BigUmp56 has told you true.

For your reference, below is the text of the "instructor comments" from the 2005 LL RIM concerning Rule 4.06(2).

INSTRUCTORS COMMENTS:

===> Language from anyone that reflects badly upon opposing players, manager, coach, an umpire or spectators. Penalty is ejection.

===> Most teams, particularly infielders, chatter ("Hey, batter, batter") when the ball is being delivered. This is usually acceptable, and has not caused any problems in local leagues. Do not, however, allow any player, especially the catcher, to yell "Swing" at the batter when the ball is being delivered.

===>Umpires should be alert to a manager or coaches' action toward players of his/her own team as well. If the behavior warrants the adult's removal, do so.

JM

[jicecone]

Originally posted by CoachJM
Illini_Ref,

BigUmp56 has told you true.

For your reference, below is the text of the "instructor comments" from the 2005 LL RIM concerning Rule 4.06(2).

JM

I guess I shouldn't have expected anything different. It's Little League.

Tim, you are SOOOOOO right.

[BigUmp56]

jicecone,

If you dont care to call LL games, so be it. The question asked by illini ref concerned a LL game. When we as umpires call games in several different organizations, we are responsible to enforce their rules as we know and understand them.

If you don't know the answer to a question about a particular organization's rules. Don't respond with misinformation as to how they are to be interpreted. If the question had been asked about a NFHS game, I would not have responded out of respect for the senior members that know FED rule applications better than I.


There was really no need to take a cut at me with your sarcastic comment. I was answering the question within my limitations, and as CoachJM pointed out there was a FACTUAL basis to the response I gave regarding LL umpire training policies.

I know that there are some on this board who do not care for the LL organization, but it is unfair to throw all LL umpires into one stereotyped class. The LL organization is the dominant organization for youth baseball in my home town. Consequently all three of my sons are involved with LL. There was really no other place to start as an umpire, except for ASA men's softball(which I hated doing!)In order to improve myself as an umpire, I have twice given up my vacation time in the spring to attend a week long umpiring camp in Indianapolis and paid all of the expenses out of my own pocket. I could have taken a fishing trip. I could have visited Disney World. I chose however to become a better umpire as others in attendence did. I belong to an association within the LL organization that holds 8 seperate clinics yearly. We meet at least once a month, year round, to pour over situations and mechanics. Each new member must serve a 1 year probationary period, and have regular evaluations by senior members before being assigned to tournament play. Then, only the most dedicated and proficient are assigned. The men and women I work with through this association are top shelf officials, and are fully dedicated to the LL organization.

It has been mentioned recently on this board by another member, that any organization is only as good as the people who represent it. When working LL games, I try my hardest to represent their organization to the best of my abiliy.

Just remember that all umpires who do LL are not " Smitty's!"

Sorry if this seems a little much, but with the LL trashing I've heard here over the past several weeks, I had the need to vent.

Tim.

[jicecone]

"There was really no need to take a cut at me with your sarcastic comment"

I think you are OVER-venting here because I DID NOT take a cut at you but, at the LL group that gave a conflicting interp with the rules.

My point is real simple, when developing new officials, it is better to give them good black and white directions in line with the rule book, and let them use their discretion from there. Especially on an issue that can make a game go south real fast.

Its all fun an games until someone takes exception with it.I say enforce the rule from the begining and it's one less thing to deal with latter.

Now is it really that big of a deal, No. but, it does get me one post closer to 1000.

have a good nite.

[Illini_Ref]

Thanks for the replies.

Even though I don't do much LL, I help out with the local league when they host a tournament and they have a State Tournament this year.

Please don't say that the rules are enforced as "black and white". How many balk discussions have I seen on here where the "veteran" consensus was "don't pick boogers"? Why is this different. It is a "time honored tradition" IMO. I played LL 30 years ago and it was done then. By the letter of the rule you shouldn't allow a "nice call blue" either. That is a comment referring to an umpire. Let's be real here.

Rule interpretations vary from the rule in many instances. For example, a couple of years ago the NFHS said that an out was to be given on a force even if the fielder wasn't on the bag but could have taken the ball on the bag but vacated it for safety reasons. They didn't change the rule, just told us how to interpret it. Same here. If the rules were meant to be "black and white", then why have interpretations????

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by Illini_Ref


I umpired a Little League State Tournament game last night. The defense was instituting the time honored tradition of yelling "hey batter" with each pitch.

Unfortunately, baseball isn't what it used to be. Pretty soon a baseball game will resemble a golf tournament and no-one will be able to say anything.

You cannot say things that were STANDARD when we played like

1. Pitcher's got nothing
2. F1 has no Move
3. He's looking for a walk
4. hand Clapping on the bases.
The list goes on and on.

What I find Amazing, is all the hoopla that goes along with Football/basketball is accepted but baseball has become this "panzy" sport now-a-days and you can't say a thing which makes our job as umpire more difficult.

I am jealous of our former Blues back in the day when all they had to worry about was calling the game. The "other" stuff, the "Game" took care of itself. Boy do I yearn for the good ole days.

Now as soon as you hear ANYTHING, put a stop to it. I am waiting for the day when someone asks "Is ok for us to breath"

Pete Booth

[jicecone]

Stick a fork in him, he's done.

Believe me, I would like nothing more than to have the game played like when I was a kid. Unfortunately, with this sickness we have developed now in trying to make our kids a professional by the age of 13 and have a college committed scholarship by the age of 8, a lot of fun has been removed from the sport. ALL SPORTS

"Please don't say that the rules are enforced as "black and white."

Well I didn't, please read,

"when developing new officials, it is better to give them good black and white directions in line with the rule book, and let them use their discretion from there.

Actually applying the rules by an official, and receiving good direction and guidance in how to apply the rules, are truly two different things and are important in developing GOOD OFFICIALS.

Peter put it very nicely, "Unfortunately, baseball isn't what it used to be. Pretty soon a baseball game will resemble a golf tournament and no-one will be able to say anything. You cannot say things that were STANDARD when we played like."

[mcrowder]

For God's sakes, folks... please don't let these kids enjoy themselves. Might offend some overly sensitive kid.

[Illini_Ref]

Originally posted by mcrowder
For God's sakes, folks... please don't let these kids enjoy themselves. Might offend some overly sensitive kid.

Mcrowder says it all in ONE sentence! Amen!