Inside the fence

[Diamondgal]

I just finished working a Legion District Tournament and I have to say "Thanks" to this forum. One of the teams participating had its usual obnoxious fans and then some. They were idiotically going crazy over things such as me not calling a balk on the pitcher's movement after I had granted the batter time. At times I felt myself getting annoyed.(Female hormones kicking in). Remembering an earlier thread where some of you stated that our job is inside the fence was something I kept repeating to myself. It helped me concentrate more on just that...the game inside of the fence.

[scottyman51]

I have that problem all the time. The other night i had a helmet thrown at me,and the night following that i had 6 parents come over to me after the game screaming at me because their team lost,and somehow that was my fault. Don't worry about the fans,try to zone them out. They are your friends if they win,and your ennomies if they loose. Sad,but true.

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by scottyman51
I have that problem all the time. The other night i had a helmet thrown at me,and the night following that i had 6 parents come over to me after the game screaming at me because their team lost,and somehow that was my fault. Don't worry about the fans,try to zone them out. They are your friends if they win,and your ennomies if they loose. Sad,but true.

This is idiotic on your part to fail to see that what goes on outside the fence has a direct bearing on your safety. Helmets thrown at you, parents screaming in your face after the game; and that is not your problem. The next step is a stabbing or a shooting. At that point will you acknowledge that YOU have a problem that YOU are responsible for dealing with? Your failure to deal with these morons early on leads to problems after the game.

As an NCAA umpire, I have the luxury of ignore stuff in the stands. I have police, game administrators, and all kinds of experienced people to support me. Even the players at this age will jump in the stop the idiots from attacking the umpires. Umpires of games where the participants are under 18 do not have these benefits. Invariably, bad behavior in the stands spills over onto the field or into the parking lot. Your failure to deal with problems is not a a sign of your maturity as an umpire, it is a sign of your ignorance and stupidity.

I have written several articles on this subject and youth baseball. I would not work with a partner who would allow zoo like behavior in the stands. The lions and tigers will come and get you.

It is almost always a bad idea to deal with this issue directly. It IS, however, always a good idea to make sure that someone deals with this and to stop the game until they do.

Peter

[PeteBooth]

, Originally posted by Diamondgal

I just finished working a Legion District Tournament and I have to say "Thanks" to this forum. One of the teams participating had its usual obnoxious fans and then some. They were idiotically going crazy over things such as me not calling a balk on the pitcher's movement after I had granted the batter time. At times I felt myself getting annoyed.(Female hormones kicking in). Remembering an earlier thread where some of you stated that our job is inside the fence was something I kept repeating to myself. It helped me concentrate more on just that...the game inside of the fence.

IMO, you and other posters have the wrong idea about OUTSIDE the Fense.

The point about Outside the fence means that umpires do not ADDRESS the Fans, nor EJECT Fans.

If it's the normal "hoopla" then yes tune it out, but once fans start to be Obnoxious, throw things as in the case of one poster, then you cannot IGNORE.

If someone throws something, the game should be stopped immediately, the police called and have the fan spend a night "in the joint". People have to start getting "real" - It's a baseball GAME Plain and Simple.

if you cannot behave accordingly, then either stay home or you can spend a night in jail.

In a nutshell, IMO the wrong message was sent regarding things outside the diamond. In general, yes we ignore UNLESS, the FAN is OBNOXIOUS, starts to throw things or comes as close to the Fense as possible to start yelling profanity or unsportsmanlie gestures at you.

Remember, in MLB and high end NCAA games, there is all types of security to handle such things so the umpires do not have to worry, but for most of us amateurs other than a TD, there is no real security around.

Pete Booth

[jicecone]

I couldn't agree more Peter.

Ignoring comments inside the fence is one thing, having things thrown at you or being confronted outside of the fence is totaly different. Nor should an official be so oblivious of his surroundings that he does not take note of potential dangers when leaving the field. Main reason, ALL officials should leave as a crew.

There are exceptions though, but good officials make sure someone is taking care of these matters, before the game is completed. It is too late afterwards.

I once needed a police escort from a game because I called out a home run hitter on appeal, that missed third base BIG TIME. I made sure they were there before we called the final out.

Be professional in dealing with the verbal chatter, but have enough sense to know when a line shall be drawn, BY YOU.

[officialtony]

Keep in mind that only half of the fans and one of the benches are mad at you. Approach the bench that is NOT upset with you as soon as things BEGIN to get ugly and have them call the TD and advise them you would like the police summoned. They can do that discreetly and you can have the protection you need and deserve. In the interim, you can continue as if nothing is wrong and as soon as the TD and/or the police arrive, deal with all of it at one time. This message will be seen and heard by all and should alleviate the problem. Also request that the police stay until the end of the game for your safety and that of your partner(s). I haven't had to do this yet, but I am ready with a plan if it does occur. This is how I feel you " eject fans or unruly attendees " - without lifting a tossing finger.

[Diamondgal]

I totally understood what you were all saying about the inside or outside of the fence. Perhaps annoying rather than obnoxious would have been more appropriate to classify the fans. You know the type that don't know the rules or are yelling about your strike zone from beyond 3rd base down the left field side of the fence. Violence didn't come into play.

I had 2 choices that night: be professional and tune out the ignorance or yell out I am woman with pms and a gun!!
(This is meant to give you all a laugh) That truly is one of the downsides of my gender but I have to learn to work through it. Sorry if that's too much info.

So again, accept my thanks.

[scottyman51]

My responsability is to call what i see,and thats exactly what i did. Not my problem the kid had anger and threw his helmet in my direction,i threw him out of the game right as he did that. As for the parents its not my problem if they are poor sports and can't handle the fact their team lost on a players bone head mistake and not the call i made. It's the coaches responability to do something about the parents,and the coaches were warned to keep their fans under control,which they failed to do. My boss who saw it all go down spoke to the coach of the team with the parents...

I respect what you all are saying but it wasnt even like i blew the call,the other ump saw the same thing,as did my boss from the outfield fence.

As parents they are supposed to be the role models and show respect and not have fits over a call that didnt even deside the game. And when a parent runs over to me and says "the kids work to hard for an idiot like you to make a call like that"isn't right,they are supposed to show the kids how to act..am i wrong?

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by scottyman51
My responsability is to call what i see,and thats exactly what i did. Not my problem the kid had anger and threw his helmet in my direction,i threw him out of the game right as he did that. As for the parents its not my problem if they are poor sports and can't handle the fact their team lost on a players bone head mistake and not the call i made.

Yes it is your problem and it is your problem because this is youth sports. When a bullet comes your way, it will be your problem in a big way.

That kid threw his helmet at you because those parents had been misbehaving all game and you did nothing about it. Since the parents got away with it, he assumed he could get away with it. The players do not figure out that there is a difference between on field and outside the fence behavior until they are 18 years of age or so. They will copy the behavior of the worst in the stands, AND that will affect you and your health.

Loud mouth negativity in the stands will evenutally spill over inside the fence. You do not have police, etc. to deal with it when that happens. There are two or three umpires and 200-300 angry fans and players. Whose a$$ is on the line here?

I am an NCAA umpire. On the few games a year that I do youth sports, I do not allow BS from the stands. Any negativity (beyond an ooh or ah) from the stands directed at me and especially at the opposing team, stops the game until management deals with it. As an assignor who also has second hand experience cleaning up messes in youth sports from umpires who "thought they should take it and ignore the fans", I can assure you that you are a fool to put yourself in a arena with out of control morons. You are one gunshot away from death and believe me, the fools are out there with guns at your games. I, personally have seen them packing heat.

Peter

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by scottyman51


Not my problem the kid had anger and threw his helmet in my direction,i threw him out of the game right as he did that. As for the parents its not my problem if they are poor sports and can't handle the fact their team lost on a players bone head mistake and not the call i made.

IMO, it is YOUR problem.

Why!

The aforementioned Parents and Kid will be at the NEXT game, meaning another Umpiring Crew will now have to "clean-up" your mess as you can bet a "dollar to a donut" that the same behavior will be enacted on the next umpiring crew.

The kid for throwing equipment directed at an umpire should be suspended for the remainder of the season if not more. The 5/6 Parents that went to the fence to yell obsentities at you should also be suspended for the reminder of the year and since summer ball is almost at it's conclusion the suspension should also be for all of next year.

If you continue to allow such behavior at games you umpire in eventually you will get burned. It's like the old fram oil commercial. Pay me now or you will pay BIG time Later.

Pete Booth

[scottyman51]

Peter i know exactly what your saying,but i'm not 30,i'm 16,and was told to zone them out and do my job. IN the first ordeal with the kid throwing his helmet,after i threw him out of the game i talked to the coach and he did personal action during the game,and then after the game saw him speaking to the parents of the player. I don't take BS but if the fans used their eye's they would have seen that infact i was right,even the first baseman know i was right,and how he probably hated the fact,he didnt make a big deal of it,neither did the coaches. The fans form out of town came to my town and thought they could run it,sit where they wanted,say what they wanted ,and think they run the place. I stood up for myself when the parents said crap and told them that if he was out i would have called him out. Call me a bad ump i really don't care,but a game that involved 10 and 11 year olds you would think the parents would have enough common sence to contain their anger and not lash out infront of the kids. The parents of the other team got into an agruement with a couple of the parents after the game.

My job is to call what i see and in both cases i was right...It's amaizing how little respect the parents have for the umps when they loose. It was hot as hell that night,the game was delayed 20 minutes because the team with the parents broke a rule but didnt think they should be penilized for it. Maybe the parents should have been mad at the coaches for putting the team in that position and screaming at the catcher so many times to throw it to second when a kid is stealing. Somehow screaming at the kid to the point he throws it to loose the game is somehow my fault,because the shortstop didnt make a clean throw to the first baseman on the very play before...

My boss said i did the right thing by not starting anything,and standing up for myself. The other ump who was an adult also said i handled it well considering,and we both warned the coaches several times to settle the parents down.
Not my problem if the coach can't control his parents. Maybe i should have done more,but if a coach notices his parents getting of control he should do it,expecually after being asked by the umps to settle them down...

[mcrowder]

Where the heck did all these advocates for extending our ears beyond the fence come from?!?!?!

Unless there is violence being threatened (which includes the early post about parents approaching him after a game), ignore it all. I agree that once that line is crossed, you should get either field admin or the police (as appropriate) involved... but you guys are really pushing the envelope on what an umpire should deal with. In my experience, opening up the rabbit ears makes it WORSE, not better.

[Tim C]

At least one person "gets it!"

Never ever let off field comments affect anything.

I would only worry if something happens that gets to field level (something thrown).

If I had a fan that was profane, difficult or just stupid I cannot picture doing anything until it comes to field level.

~Insert,"I don't work small diamond ball here"~

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by mcrowder

Where the heck did all these advocates for extending our ears beyond the fence come from?


but you guys are really pushing the envelope on what an umpire should deal with. In my experience, opening up the rabbit ears makes it WORSE, not better.

No -one is talking about Rabbit Ears, but at least from my Experience, when Fans are Out of Control , it does have an EFFECT on the GAME which is inside the diamond.

I am not a major league umpire so in no rule that I know of does it say an umpire must take abuse from fans.

It's one thing to have the normal "hoopla" that goes with the terriroty it's another to have a bunch of Obnoxious people behaving like barbarians.

If you as an umpire keep "closing a blind eye" eventually some other umpire crew will "pay for it". It only takes one bad apple to spoil the bushel..

I agree in that it's not my job to EJECT, etc. but I can stop the game and have the particpants removed or it's and easy pay-day.

This year alone in our association about 3/4 games were stopped in inning 2. Our association is sending "a message" to the leagues we service in that "if you cannot control your fans" you will have NO UMPIRES. It's time to stop taking unnecessary abuse.

In addition, if you do Nothing as you say I hope you have body-guards ready to escort you to your car.

Pete Booth

[Tim C]

Pete:

I find your area of the baseball universe "interesting" if nothing else.

I have never heard of umpires stopping ONE game much yet 3/4 of the games your group covers.

What makes your area so bad?

What criteria do your umpires use to know when to "shut it down?"

What kind of support do you have from league offices?

I am just amazed as I have NEVER considered doing anything with a single fan and here you are controlling "groups" of fans --

So here is how I would see it in my area:

If I went to a coach and said: "You need to control your fans!"

The coach would say: "I think you need to make more correct calls so they get off your back!"

That would be the end of the conversation.

Why are our areas so different?

T