Ejection. Good or Bad?

[ump24]

Last night the Arizona Diamondbacks were playing the Los Angles Dodgers. The Dodgers were absolutely killing them. With the score 8-0 in the fourth inning and the starter (Brian Anderson) already chased, relief pitcher Batista throws an errant pitch up around the batter's head. Home plate umpire Scott Higgins wastes absolutely no time and immediately chunks him.

The pitch appeared to me to be just a pitch that got away. Orel Hershiser was the color commentator and he made the same comment. There really wasn't any reason for a head hunting pitch. Looking at the replay several times it appeared to simply be a pitch that ran away. It happens!

Sandy Alderson has issued multiple statements regarding pitches "up and in". It was issued that a pitcher that throws "around the head" of a batter could be ejected with out warning. Last night was the first example of this being enforced.

I personally think this is bad. No, I don't think that it's good to throw at someone's head. But to take the judgement out of the umpire's hands and say across the board you will eject the pitcher regardless of circumstances is not good.

Fergie Jenkins was one of the most intimidating pitchers in baseball. He was known for throwing at you at the drop of a hat. He took it as a personal insult if a batter "dug in". One day while playing a game, a rookie, forgot himself and "dug in" while preparing for his first AB against Jenkins. He suddenly snapped to and remembered that he was not to do such things with Jenkins pitching. He quickly steps back out of the box and with terror in his voice tells the catcher to go out and tell Jenkins that he is sorry. The catcher, laughing, tells him that there is nothing he can do and that the damage is already done. The batter continues to whine and complain at the catcher. This begins to delay the game. Finally the umpire gets involved. He looks at the batter and says," Look, you know you screwed up and so does everyone else. NOW GET IN THE BOX AND TAKE YOUR MEDICINE!"

The batter was promptly plunked on the next pitch.

I don't reccomend going back to this way of doing things. But today's decisions coming out of Sandy Alderson's office just don't seem to make good since.

We all know the old addage," $hit runs down hill". How long until the NCAA and NFHS take these same stances. In an amatuer game I have never had to eject a pitcher for purposely throwing at a batter. Yet, there have been many batters hit. I don't like what I see on the horizon.

[Edited by ump24 on Apr 12th, 2001 at 03:10 PM]

[Bfair]

Originally posted by ump24


Sandy Alderson has issued multiple statements regarding pitches "up and in". It was issued that a pitcher that throws "around the head" of a batter could be ejected with out warning. Last night was the first example of this being enforced.

I personally think this is bad. No, I don't think that it's good to throw at someone's head. But to take the judgement out of the umpire's hands and say across the board you will eject the pitcher regardless of circumstances is not good.

You are stating that because of your feelings and apparent misunderstanding, and because of the umpire's actions last night that the Alderson stance says he SHOULD eject the pitcher. This umpire was not forced to eject the pitcher. He chose to. Umpires still have that choice. Alderson did not "take the judgement out of the umpire's hands" as you erroneoulsy stated. Alderson has put more "league support" into the umpires decision to eject without warning if, in fact, the umpire feels it is necessary. I commend Alderson for his actions in supporting the tough decisions an umpire must make in this type play. Better to be for us, than against us.

Originally posted by ump24


The pitch appeared to me to be just a pitch that got away. Orel Hershiser was the color commentator and he made the same comment. There really wasn't any reason for a head hunting pitch. Looking at the replay several times it appeared to simply be a pitch that ran away. It happens!

Just because you or Hershiser didn't see anything to cause it certainly doesn't mean it didn't happen. Perhaps the umpire DID see it. When umpiring I am aware of many things on the field the fans and media do not see. I find your statement highly surprising coming from a self-acknowldedged D1 umpire. I have seen parents and fans in the stands with your attitude. Because they didn't see what caused it, the umpire must be wrong. Here, you appear to be blaming it on Alderson. The umpire made the choice, not Alderson. Alderson is backing the ump's authority and ability to make that decision. Give me more Alderson's in this game-----and less unknowing fans (including overly critical umps and media).

Just my opinion,

Steve

[ump24]

I fully acknowledge that there could have been something that fans and commentators didn't see or hear going on. Yes, there are things I see and hear during games that casual spectators are completely unaware of. My point in this situation is that umpires in the big leagues and most everywhere else have done a good job of enforcing ejections when pitchers have deliberately thrown at batters. Myself and many others I feel, don't see the need in the front office changing the language of the ejection policy or making it a point of emphasis.

Incidentally, Scott Higgins is a very competent umpire. But, I do believe that he was pressured into that call by the front office. This is Scott's first full year in the big leagues. I watched him do multiple jobs at the AAA level and the guy is extremely talented. My post is in no way a slam on him but more a slam at the front office for trying to tell umpires how to call a game.

The new guys are going to take Alderson at his word. One, they're on probation and could be released very easily. Two, we need look no further than the 22 umpires that were released to see that the front office has no problem taking an umpires job for preceived non-compliance.

I really don't understand why you feel you must attack me with your comments. This is a friendly forum. If I attack you feel free to take a shot at me, but until then lets be peaceful and informative in our oppinions. I've only been in one flame war on this site. It was with Tim C. and I think the whole thing was very juvenile. I wish that it had not taken place. In the future try to keep your comments a little less aggressive.

JUST MY OPPINION


[Edited by ump24 on Apr 12th, 2001 at 03:12 PM]

[Tim C]

Your Fergie Jenkins story is great but I think it was really Willie Mays that got into the box against Don Drysdale. Mays dug in and then looked out and saw it was Drysdale.

Mays quickly stepped out of the box and with a wry smile covered in his "diggings" and returned to the box. As I remember the story he still got "knocked-down" with the first pitch.

Ot it could be the story that Dizzy Dean yelled into the batter, "You better dig that deeper, your going to be buried there!"

Actually I pretty much agree with Ump24 on this one. I was watching the same game and when Scott dumped him I laughed.

I, of course, have no idea if there was "bench jockeying" or what-not going on but it did seem a bit sudden.

Scott is a great umpire and teacher but let's remember who pays him. IF MLB says certain things should happen shouldn't they happ[en that way!

If my boss tells me to do something, I certainly do it. Shouldn't Higgy?

[JRutledge]

We did not hear an interaction between players. We did not see stares or words being said. There might have been many things that prompted the ejection and the pitch might have been the last straw. Maybe the pitch on its face was not that bad, but if something had been done before, that the score cannot indicate, the call might have been good.

Let me say this also. I really do not think Bfair was attacking you. Stop being so sensitive, I think the fact that you are in the position that you are at in baseball, your questioning of what a commentator is a bit disturubing at best. If you are a D1 umpire, and you had a game on TV, would you like some "commentator" making judgements about your calls, and he or she did not see what you called and why?

Look anytime you make a statement on this board, your credibility is in question. And if you have acheived the things that you have, you just need to understand that people are going to judge your argument more on who you are and what you have achieved. That is just a fact of life. And if what Bfair said is true about you, I would and am puzzled myself.

Peace

[tcarilli]

Lets consider the events that lead up to the beaning.

Los Angeles 6, Arizona 0
LOS ANGELES 4TH
-Reboulet singled to left center.
-Dreifort doubled to left, Reboulet to third.
-Miguel Batista relieved Brian Anderson.
-Grissom singled to center, Reboulet scored, Dreifort to third. Dreifort scored on center fielder S Finley's fielding error. (LA 8, Arizona 0)
*-Grissom stole second.*
-Grissom to third on M Batista wild pitch.
-Arizona's M Batista ejected by Higgins.

The score is 8-0 and Grissom steals second with nobody out and the next pitch is at Grudzielanek's head.

I don't know why it is even a question. Grissom stole second with an 8-0 lead. Seems simple to me.

[ump24]

I am not slamming the umpire! One more time, I AM NOT SLAMMING THE UMPIRE!

With that said, I want to reiterate that I think the front office should leave umpiring to umpires. The league office is made up of ex-players and rich executives. Not umpires.

The NCAA has finally seen the light on this subject by placing an umpire as Secretary/Editor of Rules.

I am not being critical of the umpire.

[tcarilli]

I hope I did not imply that you were slamming umpires. I was not. It seemed to me that the question posed was "Was the ejection warranted (ie, good or bad)?" In one post you (ump24) wrote "There really wasn't any reason for a head hunting pitch. Looking at the replay several times it appeared to simply be a pitch that ran away. It happens!" I suggested there was a reason for him to throw at the hitter (I outlined the reason), thereby making it a good ejection.

So, I guess, I don't understand why you are shouting at me.

[ump24]

I'm not shouting at you tcarilli. I am directing my emphaticness at certain individuals that seem to want to argue the fact that I was being negative to Scott Higgins.

I'm being negative to MLB policy.

Think about this for one moment. Who makes the rules in MLB? Definitely not the men in blue (read:black). Who decided that there needed to be a statement issued on how to handle pitchers that pitch high and tight? It wasn't any umpire (Sandy Alderson). Who is it that is evaluating the major league umpires currently? It's not ex-pro umpires. It's the vie-president in Alderson's office. Forgive me, but his name currently eludes me. This is not to say that there aren't some ex-pro's doing the day to day evaluation. But, the power ultimately rests with an executive under Alderson's thumb.

I'm not arguing that the league doesn't have the power to dictate policy and rules. My point is they should do so very sparingly. Did you ever hear an umpire quoted last year saying that there needed to be a policy on pitching up and in? No, because they handled it with no problem the way they've been handling it for the last 20 years. Pitching up and in is part of the PROFESSIONAL game of baseball. Like it or not. I beleive the reason there is currently a policy on the issue is because owners (all of whom contribute to running the league, hell why not, they own it)don't want their twenty five million dollar man (read:A-Rod) being thrown at. Regardless of how much body armor players wear or how bad they crowd the plate.

The NCAA has been smart about this. We now have a Secretary Rules Editor that is an umpire. ALL evaluations are done by current umpires and ex-college umpires. Makes sense, huh!

My only point in making the original post was that the league is dictating so much policy to umpires that they've now put umpires at the focal point of the game rather than the players and the teams. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that Scott Higgins did not want to throw the guy out of the game. I've seen the guy work too many times in the PCL. He was pressured into making a call on the field not by rule, not by instinct, but by Alderson's policy. This is not a good thing. Let the men in blue do they're jobs and leave them alone. They're the best in the world, after all.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by ump24


My only point in making the original post was that the league is dictating so much policy to umpires that they've now put umpires at the focal point of the game rather than the players and the teams. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that Scott Higgins did not want to throw the guy out of the game.

I'll take the payoff in dollars or donuts. I prefer jelly donut pizzas, a diet Elvis and I must have had in common.

Open your eyes.

The policy does not dictate to umpires, it SUPPORTS the actions of umpires. If you know Scott Higgins it's quite possible he did as he desired, and he did so this year knowing he has the support of Alderson and the league. He may not have done so last year.

Just because YOU don't know why this change was instituted, what makes you feel your guesses are accurate? Is it possible the MLB umps, in their skuttlebut, got this back to management and Alderson rightfully reacted? I am not saying that is the case, but rather that you or I don't really know, do we? I am also saying you are wrong in jumping on Alderson and others for taking actions because YOU don't understand.


You didn't see the situation that caused the ejection nor did Hershiser (admittedly not seen but now has been pointed out to you by tcarilli). Is it possible you, as the judge, were (are) not good enough yet to judge?

Originally posted by ump24


I'm not shouting at you tcarilli. I am directing my emphaticness at certain individuals that seem to want to argue the fact that I was being negative to Scott Higgins.

I don't mean to be aggressive toward you, but yes, it bothers me to see an experienced official take the attitude you have. Open your eyes and see this from a more NEUTRAL position, as an experienced official should. I don't see you as negative to Higgins. It appears your attitude is anti-Alderson when in fact what was done by him here supports the actions of umpiring. Your words are being shaded by your apparent feelings and lack of facts.

Just my opinion,

Steve

[Tim C]

I think you MAY BE jumping to conclusions here.

In my conversations with two MLB umpires and three minor league umpires during the off season NONE of them suggested that THEY needed the strike zone changed or the "bean ball" process changed.

I am not sure exactly why you are landing on 24 so hard for this issue.

Alderson has made it quite clear (in articles and interviews) that HE thinks the umpiring in the game needed some fine tuning.

From the beginning Sandy has made a concertrated effort to move the umpires into a more closely managed position. Since I have no idea whether this is right or wrong I look at it from the OUTSIDE with this view:

UMPIRES have been told that certain things are to change. UMPIRES see that MLB is serious (talk with any of the 22 still unemployed umpires)in this direction.

My opinion, and make sure you understand that it is MY opinion, is that Scott made a call exactly as his boss's required.

[ump24]

tcarilli gave his oppinion on the subject. Very insightful and well thought out. I don't agree with tcarilli but I will say that his oppinion is a definite possibility and could very well be the truth. I hold the position that the ejection was done because of Alderson's statements regarding pitches up and in.

Alderson is not asking that the strike zone be raised. He is demanding it. What do you think is going to happen to umpires that don't conform? I can promise you they will not remain on staff. Ask the 22 that are currently MIA.

Alderson's policy on pitching up and in is no different. It isn't a request.

Bfair is taking the position that he is backing up umpires in their decision to throw out players. I disagree and feel this view is short sighted. Raise your hand if you enjoy throwing out players. Me neither. Bfair, the umpires aren't itching to throw players out for chin music. My personal oppinion is they could care less. This is illustrated in my original post regarding Jenkins.

If a guy is stealing signs on second (at the professional level) what do you think is going to happen to him when he comes to the plate? You got it, he's either going to be dusting himself off or pretending his arm doesn't hurt like hell as he's limping to first. Umpire's know this. It's been going on forever. As long as its kept professional and they're not exposed nothing is said. The umpire usually only gets involved when its chicken $hit. Such as the guy took you deep in the first and fourth so you plunck him in the sixth. Wrong answer, you're gone.

Richie Garcia said it best when he asked where the strike zone is. "It's were I call it and they don't *****!", he responded. Good umpire's want as little crap as possible. An ejection brings the attention on the umpire. Especially when it was done like last night. Which was by the book and to the letter of the law.....according to Alderson.

I am not advocating throwing at batters at any level. The fact remains though, that it is part of the professional game. At no time do I believe it to be appropriate at the amateur level (i.e. Little League to College). This is the last post I will make regarding this discussion.

Tim C., thank you for your support and clear thinking. Maybe we have more to agree on than I thought. Incidentally you made the comment that Scott was a great teacher. Have you seen him at work in clinics and such? Like to hear your thoughts. I always thought his work in the PCL was impeccable.

ump24

[Tim C]

24:

Scott (under direction from Teddy Barrett, Mike Winters and Gary Darling) was the lead field instructor for the Golden State Umpire group before their demise.

Not only does Higgy live only 40 mins from my area he is very involved in teaching local College Camps for Honig's in this area.

If you tie Scott together with Portland's own Dale Scott you have a pretty fair pair of teachers in a kinda small area. Add Troy Penrod, another Minor League Umpire that lives in Salem, we have a pretty good teaching group locally.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by Tim C
.

I am not sure exactly why you are landing on 24 so hard for this issue.

Alderson has made it quite clear (in articles and interviews) that HE thinks the umpiring in the game needed some fine tuning.

From the beginning Sandy has made a concertrated effort to move the umpires into a more closely managed position. Since I have no idea whether this is right or wrong I look at it from the OUTSIDE with this view:

UMPIRES have been told that certain things are to change. UMPIRES see that MLB is serious (talk with any of the 22 still unemployed umpires)in this direction.

My opinion, and make sure you understand that it is MY opinion, is that Scott made a call exactly as his boss's required.

\

I am not coming down hard on 24, rather, I am pointing out that Scott made the decision to do what he thought was necessary. It was his decision, not Alderson's. I would hope any experienced umpire would realize there may be factors on the field (and off) that are not necessarily evident when watching from TV. If not, they should. For us to criticize Higgins or Alderson is out of our current realm. I feel relatively certain few of us know what occurred in Scott's mind, and to speculate is unfair.
I do know I am pleased to see the actions of Alderson support the decision Higgins made. It sure beats the reverse.


By the way, Tee, if I were coming down hard on 24 I would start ca-a-a-a-llin him names, like:
Twenty four
XXIV
Thirty minus 6
Square root of 576

As you can see, I took it easy on him wihout getting nasty. ;-)

Steve

[Tim C]

You haven't lost your sense of humor.

BTW, Hi! Long time no talk.