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Mon Jul 25, 2005, 03:32pm
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dudeinblue and tjones1,
It sounds as if you both still have a bad case of " rabbit ears." Leave what's going on outside of the fence alone unless you feel the spectator is inciting a team to the point that it is beginning to spill over on to the field, or there language becomes profane and abusive. Then, if you feel the need to have a spectator removed, either find a league official, or an athletic director to take the matter into their hands. IMO you are heading for trouble if you continue to address the fans in regards to there actions. Also IMO the wife was right and we have no authority to " eject" a spectator. Tim. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ As umpires, we are the only ones in the world expected to be perfect on our first day on the job, and improve from there. 
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Mon Jul 25, 2005, 03:39pm
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That's one of the main reasons to eject a parent...if what they are saying or doing spills onto the field. I could care less otherwise. It must be different where you all umpire because where I'm at, they tell us in summer ball to eject parents/fans that cause problems. I do play deaf most of the time and ignore the idiots and think that is the way it should be handled most of the time, but around here it seems as though fans getting tossed are just as normal as coaches or players. Some of the fans of kids ages 8-14 are complete psychos. This is how they learn, and this is why you see better behaved parents and fans at the older level.
__________________
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Mon Jul 25, 2005, 03:46pm
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At a summer league 15U game I was BU. A fan started getting on the PU about his ball and strike calls. The PU ignored him till he started using profanities. At this point the PU said "Sir there are women and children present would you please watch your language". His response was "I can talk any f*****g way I please". The PU said no you can't and told him to leave the park. At this point the irate fan tried to enter the field thru a gate by the 1st base dugout. I met him there and said to come in here you're going to have to come thru me and that won't be easy! He was then grabbed by two off duty policemen (they showed me their badges)and escorted him away! That was the only time in 15 years of being an umpire that I received applause from the spectators.
P.S. I think the irate fan's name was Drumbum or something like that!
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Mon Jul 25, 2005, 03:59pm
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dude - I think perhaps the reason you are having to deal with fans in the manner that you are is that your field admin has managed to foist his duties off on you. And you let him, and took up the charge.
In my entire career, I've ejected 2 fans - and those were simultaneous. These two were making such a racket, cursing and berating both me and the players, that we actually had players stop what they were doing. I looked for field admin, and they were apparently dealing with a mound issue quite far from me. Technically, I didn't eject them, but I did inform the coach of their team that we weren't playing until he got those two into the parking lot. But I STILL felt like I could have handled that better. We, as umpires, have authority ON the field to handle issues ON the field, in order to maintain a fairly played game. We should not be put into a position where we are forced to personally deal with people outside the fences.
__________________
"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson
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Mon Jul 25, 2005, 04:23pm
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Crowder- you are exactly right and I agree 100% with you. We are to officiate "on the field" and that is the way I do it as I've only had to throw out 2 fans as well and they were both simultaneous (one was a woman with one leg!!). Sometimes I do let fans get to me but I still choose to ignore it. Fans piss me off, but I ignore them. Here in East Tennessee we are told by our assignor and by every single tournament director to dump any fans that give us problems, while most of them say problems do not include arguing, but only when they get personal with you. I try to handle it professionally and play the deaf ear, but when you umpire with guys who throw parents out as regular as coaches, it makes you think twice. But I definately agree with your statement. It's just at these little parks with kids playing, if you have some idiotic parent going on about something, most of the time it seeps to the other parents, then to the coach, and then to the players which ends in a complete catastrophe. Couldn't these situations be prevented?
__________________
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Mon Jul 25, 2005, 04:27pm
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Re: Oh Boy
Quote:
I could be wrong and I would certainly have no problem admitting I was. Good day.
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Mon Jul 25, 2005, 04:32pm
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I don't know how it is where you're at Tony, but here when an umpire ejects a fan from the game, they have to leave...period. Also, we have the authority to do this...period. There can't be a tournament director at every field there buddy
__________________
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Mon Jul 25, 2005, 05:26pm
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Dude, Tjones, and others....I have never ejected a fan in 12+ years of umpiring. Only once did I talk to a fan and it could have gotten me in hot water. In a 9-10 game, during my first season, there was a group of people in and around the dugout giving my partner and I a rash of crap about a hit batter. I got tired of it and looked over at the dugout, at a lady, who I thought was actually in the dugout, and told her to knock it off. She intercepted me as I was leaving and gave me a bunch more grief, including insuating that I was a racist, and I was green enough to stand there and take it. First time, last time of conversing with a fan.
I am not sure where in the rules you are garnering your authority to throw out fans, but I'd be curious to see it. As long as the fan isn't profane or obscene, they have a right to make an a** of themselves. Usually they will go on and on until somebody bigger and meaner tells them to shut up. Problem solved. If they are profane or obscene, get a game administrator. If no admin exists, get the coaches together (unless it's clear a fan belongs to one side) and instruct them to handle the problem. If all of that fails, ask for someone to call the authorities. Have them remove the person. In all of the scenarios you have had no direct interaction with the fan, which is the way it should be. If you are calling AAU or USSSA tourneys, I can't believe that the admins want you to throw out fans. That is their job. If this is happening (umpires dumping fans) more than once in a blue moon, then something has to give. You may need to meet with the league officials. You may need to call elswhere. You may need to look in the mirror and see if you can do something to change it. Finally, if dumping fans is something you do and you don't see why it's just not an accepted practice among umpires, you need to re-examine the credentials of those giving the advice. I am just one guy from NC but Mr. Carilli is a competant authority and he gave the same advice. Lawrence
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Mon Jul 25, 2005, 06:05pm
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Actually Lawrence, in the USSSA rulebook it states under rule 9.02:
"Any player, coach, or parent/fan, whose conduct is unbecoming or abusive will, at minimum, be warned and may be removed from the playing field and/or stands at the discretion of the tournament officials and/or umpires." You say to let the tournament directors handle this...well lets see. You have to pause the game and go find the tournament director and point out to them the parent/fan whom you want to leave. I'd say this is the exact same thing as throwing somebody out. There's just no way around it. For example: the other day at the 10 year old AABC regionals I was PU. There was a runner on 1st base that stole and the catcher throws down and the runner is barely safe. Well, of course, the team in the field thought he was out so one of the dad's on the side of the fence climbs halfway up and screams at the top of his lungs: "You stink blue, what the hell kind of a damn call was that?" He had to go Lawrence. No questions asked. And you know who took care of it? My partner, not the tournament director. My partner threw him out and the tournament director made sure he left. That's just the way I've always seen it. The tournament director wasn't down there and he didn't hear it. So do we just ignore this? Of course not! Do we leave it up to the tournament director? Heck no! The tournament director backs us up 100% or he knows he will lose some umpires. There are just too many objections to your point.
__________________
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Mon Jul 25, 2005, 06:32pm
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Quote:
Where do these game administrators come from? Most of the time, even at high school games, I don't know if there is an AD or anyone connected with the school (other than coaches). I have never seen a game administrator for AAU, Babe Ruth (except for TDs at tournaments), American Legion, MABL, MSBL, NABA, industrial leagues, you name it. From time to time, county police swing by games at county parks but you can't depend on it. Similarly, they usually come through school parking lots as you are getting ready to leave (activity and lights in the parking lot around 11 PM gets their attention). Other than each other, may partner and I usually have nothing, no resources, to deal with an irate fan (or player for that matter) other than the general good will of whomever happens to be there. (Cell phone, pepper spray, and SIG-Sauer .45 ACP in the car if I can get there.)
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Mon Jul 25, 2005, 07:44pm
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Quote:
Thanks for the rule citation. Doesn't mean that I agree with it but you have a rule, at least in USSSA, that supports your authority. It would seem that the examples you cite are on small diamond games. I am not criticizing working those games. I have been there and know there are some crazy fans out there. But I can tell you this, at the HS, Legion, and beyond levels you cannot get away with throwing fans out of the game. I know of one ejection outside of the field this year in my area. A concession stand worker, where the stand is located near the first base line, called the base umpire a blind SOB (actually he said it a second time just so the BU could hear him clearly). The worker was removed by the legion athletic director at the request of the umpire. But the umpire didn't actually throw him out physically. I will trust you that umpires ejecting fans is a common and accepted practice in your area. But I think you should also realize that in most other areas of the US, this isn't something that's a normal practice. Lawrence
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Mon Jul 25, 2005, 08:06pm
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Okay Lawrence, we must have been a little confused then man, because that's what I was talking about.... little kids baseball. I know, you're exactly right about the older kids and I agree 100%. We just miscommunicated a little bit, sounds to me as if we're on the exact same page on this issue. It is a norm around here but not for me, I don't agree with it other than in extreme situations like the one I cited earlier either. Sorry if I sounded like a smart-alec on the earlier post. So Tim C, what would you do in the situation I posted earlier? Keep ignoring? Please tell me because I am curious to know. Any of the big dogs please let me know if we are supposed to "never" throw out fans even considering the age of the players. DG? Carl? DownTown? Mick? Bob?
__________________
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Mon Jul 25, 2005, 08:13pm
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Quote:
again, i fail to see where the changing of the seasons has anything to do with the changing of how you umpire other than the fact that you dont wear plate coats in july. Quote:
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