Did he go?

[Striker991]

High School (NFHS Brand) has just as many, if not more, quirks in its rules vs OBR as Little League. Just because the players are older doesn't mean squat.

Here's one for you...

I took the UIC position at our local Babe Ruth league because no one else wanted it. Every time I had a problem with an umpire related to rules, mechanics, or consistency, it was when I had an umpire that also did high school ball and I was PAYING more for than any other umpires I had.

Just because some of you do high school ball doesn't mean squat to me. If you have something valuable to add, great. I have learned a lot from umpires and trainers from all levels and organizations.

Many, many baseball umpires I have seen that ONLY do high school are worse than the local volunteer association that does Little League. The sad part is they are getting paid to be bad. The best HS umpires I have seen are also members of the volunteer association; they are highly regarded by BOTH organizations and regularly receive post-season assignments in both.

Our board is considering not using the HS umpires this next year because of the high cost of ineptitude.

To conclude, being a HS umpire contains no status except in the mind of those umpires. They are no better than any other umpire of any other organization, and just because they get paid doesn't make them any better trained.

I have even less respect for any umpire that takes a position that cannot be backed up with a respected reference, and when refuted with a respected reference, merely blows it off. And with the experience I have had this year with PAID, HS-level umps, give me a volunteer any day of the week, for any game, any time.

[Tim C]

We have gone around on this type issue before.

In MY area there is no comparison between paid and unpaid umpires.

My information in anecdotal just as yours.

We will never agree and that is fine . . . my friend Rich hits me with the LL arguement all the time.

I appreciate your posts even when we fight.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by Striker991
High School (NFHS Brand) has just as many, if not more, quirks in its rules vs OBR as Little League. Just because the players are older doesn't mean squat.

So you admit that LL is to lazy to write rules for 10 year olds? They just copy the rules written for 30 year old men and throw in a few changes.

The Federation book has many differences from the OBR becauses it is a completly different book. It was not copied and then changed. The FED knows what the HS game needs, and they write rules accordingly.


You think LL trained umpires are better than guys trained to work HS games? How about you try this out. Take one of those bad FED guys, and stick him on one of those 60 foot LL games. Take one of the good LL only guys, and put him on a HS game.

After watching those 2 games, you will not have the same viewpoint which you have now. The skills needed to work a LL game are far far fewer than the skills needed to work a HS game. That HS umpire may not be the best guy around, but he is still a lot better than a guy who works only 60 foot baseball.

[David B]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley

What makes you think I was criticizing the title? I was simply asking why he chose that title. I thought maybe there was a joke in there somewhere that I wasn't getting.

I was just curious, not trying to bust anyone's balls.

It was a joke in a way, but it also has to do with the topic.

Did the "runner" go? Did he attempt to go to second or did he simply turn into the field of play etc., etc.,

I thought it was creative at least, and had nothing to do with 10 and under baseball.

Thanks
David

[Striker991]

Originally posted by LDUB

You think LL trained umpires are better than guys trained to work HS games? How about you try this out. Take one of those bad FED guys, and stick him on one of those 60 foot LL games. Take one of the good LL only guys, and put him on a HS game.

After watching those 2 games, you will not have the same viewpoint which you have now. The skills needed to work a LL game are far far fewer than the skills needed to work a HS game. That HS umpire may not be the best guy around, but he is still a lot better than a guy who works only 60 foot baseball.

LDUB...

First, Little League covers ages from 6 years old (sometimes younger) through 18 years old. So, there are many, many Little League umpires with experience and training on the big field.

Second, I have seen HS umpires on 60 ft diamonds that were completely lost. I have also seen 60 ft umpires transition to the big field flawlessly.

I have always been a huge supporter of the volunteer umpire, but this year was the first year I actually saw how bad at least 50% of the paid umpires were. In my area (I can only speak from my experience), I would pit our local volunteer organization that does mostly Little League against the local paid organization that does High School any day of the week. From my experience, ALL of our volunteer guys would be better than ANY of the paid guys, with the exception of 5 or 6 of the paid guys, who are quite good. As stated in my previous post, the BEST HS umpires I have seen are those that participate in both organizations and have received training from both. Big field mechanics are not that different from small field; mainly the starting point is different, with a few changes in responsibility.

Many people on this board say LL isn't "real" baseball. If we're talking "real" baseball, isn't a set of rules based on OBR and revised for the age group closer to "real" baseball than the completely re-written rules of NFHS? Hmmmm?

Tell you what...come here and watch our guys do a JR, SR, or Big League tournament and then meander over to the stadium and watch the paid guys do the Babe Ruth District tournament next weekend. You will see what I see.

PAID does not equal better; I can train volunteers to be as good, better most of the time. The two very best umpires I had all season were one of each. One was an older fellow with the paid organization that could out-hustle anyone younger. He got his start as a volunteer. The other was one of our umpires from the volunteer organization, that even when offered pay, turned it down. He was excellent, and all it cost me was a bacon-cheeseburger, fries, and a Coke.

I don't want to get into the paid vs volunteer debate again. I am sure that most of you guys that do HS ball are excellent and worth more than what you get paid. I'm just saying that in my experience, especially this year as a UIC where I dealt directly with ALL of our umpires, paying the umpires from our local association hasn't been worth it and I am seriously considering dropping them completely next year.

[Tim C]

Striker:

In the most general of terms can you tell us where you are locatd?

[Striker991]

As I understand it, just across the river from you...

SW Washington State.

[GarthB]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by w_sohl
While I understand everyones desire to avoid Little League baseball, if I have read the title of this forum correctly it is Officiating.com. We can all agree on this right?
Yes.

And this is the Baseball area, we can again agree on this.

Okay.

Next, this is a forum for officials to congregate and I think we can all agree on that.

Yippee. Does this mean we can get rid of the Rats?

Next, can we all agree that even though it is little league they still use officials?

Sometimes.

And finally, can we all agree that even though it is little league they are playing some form of baseball?

Barely recongnizable at times, but I suppose since they use a ball and a bat...

If we can all agree on those points then I think it is quite appropriate for little league umpires to post in a baseball officiating forum.

Not neccarily the proper conclusion. Based on your assumptions a Little League officiating forum would be more appropriate.

[Edited by GarthB on Jul 1st, 2005 at 07:35 PM]

[LDUB]

Originally posted by w_sohl
And finally, can we all agree that even though it is little league they are playing some form of baseball?

No, I don't agree to this.

LL baseball, is softball played with a hardball.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by Striker991
First, Little League covers ages from 6 years old (sometimes younger) through 18 years old. So, there are many, many Little League umpires with experience and training on the big field.

As I said in my post, I was talking about guys who work 60 foot baseball only.

Originally posted by Striker991
I would pit our local volunteer organization that does mostly Little League against the local paid organization that does High School any day of the week. From my experience, ALL of our volunteer guys would be better than ANY of the paid guys, with the exception of 5 or 6 of the paid guys, who are quite good.

Are you saying the volunteer guys are better than the whole HS association, or just the guys who work BR also? I bet there are some very good officials who also work football and basketball who don't want to fool around with kid baseball durring the summer.

Originally posted by Striker991
Many people on this board say LL isn't "real" baseball. If we're talking "real" baseball, isn't a set of rules based on OBR and revised for the age group closer to "real" baseball than the completely re-written rules of NFHS? Hmmmm?

No. Federation rules are much much closer to the OBR than LL rules. Baseball with no leadoffs is called softball.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by Striker991
High School (NFHS Brand) has just as many, if not more, quirks in its rules vs OBR as Little League. Just because the players are older doesn't mean squat.

Here's one for you...

I took the UIC position at our local Babe Ruth league because no one else wanted it. Every time I had a problem with an umpire related to rules, mechanics, or consistency, it was when I had an umpire that also did high school ball and I was PAYING more for than any other umpires I had.

Just because some of you do high school ball doesn't mean squat to me. If you have something valuable to add, great. I have learned a lot from umpires and trainers from all levels and organizations.

Many, many baseball umpires I have seen that ONLY do high school are worse than the local volunteer association that does Little League. The sad part is they are getting paid to be bad. The best HS umpires I have seen are also members of the volunteer association; they are highly regarded by BOTH organizations and regularly receive post-season assignments in both.

Our board is considering not using the HS umpires this next year because of the high cost of ineptitude.

To conclude, being a HS umpire contains no status except in the mind of those umpires. They are no better than any other umpire of any other organization, and just because they get paid doesn't make them any better trained.

I have even less respect for any umpire that takes a position that cannot be backed up with a respected reference, and when refuted with a respected reference, merely blows it off. And with the experience I have had this year with PAID, HS-level umps, give me a volunteer any day of the week, for any game, any time.

Perhaps in your "nape of the neck" this may be the case but in the vast majority of the cases this is not the true. As evidence over the years I've watched the LL World Series. If I see one more out signaled (Have I been guilty of this? Of course, but I can't remeber the last time that I did this.) and then changed to safe I'll throw up. Timing is perhaps the single most elemental factor that an umpire at any level has the ability to master. If these are the best you got I'm not impressed. At least at the High School level to maintain your license you have to take a test each year ( yeah I know it's open book) and periodically attend Certified Clinics and you are rated by the someone either coaches or local assocaitions. As a "Volunteer Umpire" this is generally not the case. You mention that you have High School Umpires that get post season assignments. Yeah duh in all likilhood they are C's or perhaps R's seasoned veteran officials that have recieved the proper training, passed tests and have demontrated a certain level of competence.

At least with a High School Official I know he passed a test and attended a clinic. Does that make him competent? Of course not. With a Volunteer I suspect this is not the case. Does this make him incompetent? Of course not. However, to a neutral observer ( Coach, fan etc.) I ask you who has more credibility?

[Edited by gordon30307 on Jul 3rd, 2005 at 12:06 PM]

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by LDUB
No. Federation rules are much much closer to the OBR than LL rules. Baseball with no leadoffs is called softball.

And there are those who say baseball with "force play slide rules" is sissy-ball. They're as wrong as you are.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by gordon30307
As evidence over the years I've watched the LL World Series.

If you're honest in your assessment, then you would have to acknowledge that the demonstrated competence of the umpires in the televised Little League games has been steadily improving over the years. The last "oh my God" moment was three or four years ago when LL UIC Andy Konyar pointed a ball foul, then reversed his call to fair in mid-play, and what should have been a single ended up being a standup triple. Other than that, there was a horribly missed call on a runner's failure to touch second base while U2 was looking right at the play, who then inexplicably ruled safe on appeal. That was 3 years ago.

Other than those outliers, the truth is the televised games in the Little League regional championships and world series the last several years have been characterized by umpires who are exhibiting good timing and proper mechanics (although it must also be acknowledged that the adopted coverage and rotation mechanics on a 60 foot diamond being covered by 6 umpires is strained, at best) at the plate and in the field. You simply cannot support a broad generalization that LL umpires are homegrown Smittys, based on the performances we are seeing these days in the televised games.

Unique among youth baseball organizations, Little League sponsors week-long umpire training schools in most of its eight U.S. regions. For those who attend these schools (and I would concede that not nearly enough LL umpires get the opportunity to attend) the training is certainly in the same ballpark as the typical training a high school umpire receives in his local association.

I am both a varsity high school umpire and a Little League umpire. I have also worked most other youth leagues, and competitive adult amateur baseball. No league/organization has a monopoly on good or bad umpires.

[Tim C]

David I agree that REGIONAL LL umpiring has improved leaps and bounds in the past three years that I have seen these games on TV.

The World Series is still tremndously weak and that is where many of us establish our evaluation.

All our examples are anecdotal to our area (some could possibly be state wide).

I agree with Striker in one sense:

I saw a three man crew of his association work and I worked a mixed four man crew and I to would question using those umpires working even at the high school level.

They were simply poorly trained. AND, it was the first time I ever saw FED umpires in Strikers area work.

5 miles away in Portland the training is much more complete.

arto review my position concerning "some" Little League trained umpires . . . so far I have found that the best LL umpires, even those working for a dog and a coke, IN MY AREA have received their training from somewhere other than their local District Little League group.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley

And there are those who say baseball with "force play slide rules" is sissy-ball. They're as wrong as you are.

I am not wrong.

To the person without rules knowledge, LL is softball except for the ball is pitched overhand, and the ball is smaller.

Yes LL uses the OBR as the base for their rule book. But once you take 30 feet off the basepaths, and tell the runers they must stand on the bases, you are now playing softball.


I agree that the FPSR is "sissy ball." But in anything but Pro ball, this is a good rule. No need for the players to get hurt.

Rules requiring batting helmets is sissy ball. If a guy wants to risk his health, go for it. It is his choice. The OBR DH rule is sissy ball. Even MLB does things that are sissy.