Coach can't have count indicator?

[orioles35]

Don't you just love that phrase, "...but I'm on the board."

One "board member" tried to bend the rules (he was a coach) to suit his team DURING a game. When I told him he was incorrect, he gave me the catch phrase. My response was "I don't care what you're on, the rule is maximum six runs an inning." This was the same guy who wanted infield fly on a foul ball. His son turned out okay, I called his game a few weeks back. Fortunately his father/coach isn't in the dugout any more.

[LMan]

http://www.eteamz.com

[Striker991]

I just wanted to reiterate what Peter stated in his post. It is always hard to tell exactly what has occurred at games when you get three different perspectives. Never has this been so true for me as it has this year. The Babe Ruth league my son moved to this year was lacking a(n?) UIC this year so I stepped up. The first part of the season (called our pre-season), we use all volunteer umpires. The real season we use the local association. It didn't seem to matter whether we were using volunteer or paid, I still have the same issues coming up in comments from parents, coaches, players AND umpires. AMAZING! The worst situation arose when, of course, I wasn't at that particular game. That evening, I got an earful from both teams' coaches about the plate umpire for that game. Apparently, both sides were unimpressed by his game management skills. So, being an umpire and having worked with these people, I know how they are. And, being an umpire and knowing how one can be exasperated at times, I knew how an umpire may possibly react. This is how I handled it (and it relates to how one might possibly handle an umpire that APPEARS to be an OOO, as in the indicator issue). I called the assignor for the association and told him first of all that I wasn't there, but it appears there was this issue (I won't get into it...too long already). I told him I don't know for sure how the umpire handled it as all information I have is second-hand and hearsay. However, in the future, if this issue arises again, here is how I would like to see it handled...and I gave him very specific instructions to provide the umpires that worked at our park (most of them familiar with proper proticol, which is the same for most, if not all baseball programs). I backed it up in writing with an e-mail and I made it very clear that I was neither implicating his umpire nor exonerating our people that were involved. I simply didn't know. This way, I could tell our board that I handled it, even though all I did was reiterate common proticol to the assignor, who knew most, if not all, of his umpires were aware of. If, indeed, this particular umpire was an OOO, then his association could handle it.

[twest]

If Peter wants to hear the rest of the story, he's going to be reading for a long time. The moral of the story is, I just want to know if it's actually legal or not. Alot of the messages posted were missing the whole point of my post.

Thank you for the one who stated it had nothing to do with an umpire on the 'clicker'. I didn't know what the heck it's called so I went to search for Umpire equipment and that was the official name "Indicator". So that was the search name I used on the PDFs that I found on USSSA and Major League.

It was a jack### board member who came over from the concession stand area to tell our coach (our kids were on defense) to put the clicker away or he would be ejected. The coaches just keep track of the count and outs so they will know what to do when for the kids. Not to argue with the umpires when we only have 3 balls and it should be 4, etc. Although sometimes it could very important to argue in a gametime situation! But, the homebook is always official anyway.

So, again, does ANYONE know of any rule stating it is ILLEGAL for a coach to have a 'clicker' on the field or on the dugout at anytime. In that case, is it wrong for a parent/fan is not allowed to have one either? Give me a break!

Please let me know, I appreciate the input so far!

[Rich]

Originally posted by twest
If Peter wants to hear the rest of the story, he's going to be reading for a long time. The moral of the story is, I just want to know if it's actually legal or not. Alot of the messages posted were missing the whole point of my post.

Thank you for the one who stated it had nothing to do with an umpire on the 'clicker'. I didn't know what the heck it's called so I went to search for Umpire equipment and that was the official name "Indicator". So that was the search name I used on the PDFs that I found on USSSA and Major League.

It was a jack### board member who came over from the concession stand area to tell our coach (our kids were on defense) to put the clicker away or he would be ejected. The coaches just keep track of the count and outs so they will know what to do when for the kids. Not to argue with the umpires when we only have 3 balls and it should be 4, etc. Although sometimes it could very important to argue in a gametime situation! But, the homebook is always official anyway.

So, again, does ANYONE know of any rule stating it is ILLEGAL for a coach to have a 'clicker' on the field or on the dugout at anytime. In that case, is it wrong for a parent/fan is not allowed to have one either? Give me a break!

Please let me know, I appreciate the input so far!

There is no such rule. BTW, the plate umpire has the official count, NOT the home book.

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by twest
) .....So, again, does ANYONE know of any rule stating it is ILLEGAL for a coach to have a 'clicker' on the field or on the dugout at anytime. In that case, is it wrong for a parent/fan is not allowed to have one either? Give me a break!

Please let me know, I appreciate the input so far!

If you are doing OBR, there is nothing wrong with someone other than the umpires using an indicator. If you are doing FED, it's stepping over the line by the rules. Would I call it in a FED game - no I wouldn't.

Now, under either rule, long as the coach doesn't refer to the indicator that he is carrying, we are okay. Some will argue, using the indicator is the same as using a scorebook. If a coach comes to me with his scorebook I wil talk with him. If he comes to me with an indicator, I don't know him from a hole in the wall.

[UmpJM]

ozzy,

Why I am shocked! I thought FED rules explicitly allowed it, assuming he's not sharing it or anything.

Then it's Personal, it's certainly Digital (I've never seen an analog indicator), and it's Assisting him in keeping track of the counts and outs. Hence, a PDA. Rule doesn't say it has to be electronic or anything.

Coaching a game over the weekend, our team at bat. Our batter fouls one that eludes the catcher and hits the PU somewhere in the hip area. He had taken one earlier in the game right in the chest and didn't even flinch. This one got him - I could tell immediately.

I immediately requested "TIME" (coaching 3B at the time) and went to talk to my batter about nothing for a minute or two while the umpire walks it off.

Next pitch, the batter swings and misses and the umpire indicates the count at 2 & 2. I was pretty sure it had been strike three on my batter. So were the opposing coaches (PU was solo for this game). They ask for time & appeal the count. I check with my scorekeeper & he's got strike three as well. Although I believe this is against protocol, I went and joined the conversation and let the umpire know he wasn't going to get any objection from us if he changed the count to strike three. He was still trying to recover from the shot he'd taken on the foul (which was strike two) - aparently he'd taken a shot in the same unproteted spot in a game a few days earlier and it was pretty unpleasant.

All I'm saying is in some cases it's not such a bad thing for a coach to have the count.

JM

[mick]

Originally posted by CoachJM
... I went and joined the conversation and let the umpire know he wasn't going to get any objection from us if he changed the count to strike three....

Yer a keeper, CoachJM.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by ozzy6900
If you are doing FED, it's stepping over the line by the rules.

Could you cite the rule you're referring to?

Thanks.

[DG]

Originally posted by CoachJM
ozzy,

Why I am shocked! I thought FED rules explicitly allowed it, assuming he's not sharing it or anything.

Then it's Personal, it's certainly Digital (I've never seen an analog indicator), and it's Assisting him in keeping track of the counts and outs. Hence, a PDA. Rule doesn't say it has to be electronic or anything.

Coaching a game over the weekend, our team at bat. Our batter fouls one that eludes the catcher and hits the PU somewhere in the hip area. He had taken one earlier in the game right in the chest and didn't even flinch. This one got him - I could tell immediately.

I immediately requested "TIME" (coaching 3B at the time) and went to talk to my batter about nothing for a minute or two while the umpire walks it off.

Next pitch, the batter swings and misses and the umpire indicates the count at 2 & 2. I was pretty sure it had been strike three on my batter. So were the opposing coaches (PU was solo for this game). They ask for time & appeal the count. I check with my scorekeeper & he's got strike three as well. Although I believe this is against protocol, I went and joined the conversation and let the umpire know he wasn't going to get any objection from us if he changed the count to strike three. He was still trying to recover from the shot he'd taken on the foul (which was strike two) - aparently he'd taken a shot in the same unproteted spot in a game a few days earlier and it was pretty unpleasant.

All I'm saying is in some cases it's not such a bad thing for a coach to have the count.

JM

First time I have heard an indicator described as a PDA, and it will not wash, because we all know what a PDA is. Technically, FED would not allow an indicator in the hands of a base coach, because it's not mentioned as one of the things a base coach can have. But I can't imagine anyone who would care if the coach had an indicator. And of course, the original situation was about a coach in the dugout with an indicator and no FED rule I am aware of would prevent that, just like a pitch counter is not mentioned and often used in the dugout.

[twest]

The rule we are discussing is whether or not a coach can have a count 'clicker' in the dugout or on the field at anytime.

A board member at our last USSSA tournament came to our dugout in the last inning of our game and told our coach he had to put the clicker up or be ejected. I told that man he better show me in the rules where that was because we had NEVER heard such a thing in our life! Our kids were on the field in defense, not batting.

The man said after the game that he could've been ejected so it states in the rules. Well he then preceded to tell me that they went by not 1, but 3 different rules. OSSAA (Oklahoma Secondary School Activities), USSSA AND Major League! The tournament was listed and advertised as USSSA tournament. We live in Northern Oklahoma. We have never heard of FED or anything like what some are talking about. I think the guy was just being a real @$$.

Thanks for all your input, now I don't feel like I raised such a stink over nothing!

TW

[David B]

Originally posted by twest
The rule we are discussing is whether or not a coach can have a count 'clicker' in the dugout or on the field at anytime.

A board member at our last USSSA tournament came to our dugout in the last inning of our game and told our coach he had to put the clicker up or be ejected. I told that man he better show me in the rules where that was because we had NEVER heard such a thing in our life! Our kids were on the field in defense, not batting.

The man said after the game that he could've been ejected so it states in the rules. Well he then preceded to tell me that they went by not 1, but 3 different rules. OSSAA (Oklahoma Secondary School Activities), USSSA AND Major League! The tournament was listed and advertised as USSSA tournament. We live in Northern Oklahoma. We have never heard of FED or anything like what some are talking about. I think the guy was just being a real @$$.

Thanks for all your input, now I don't feel like I raised such a stink over nothing!

TW

stupidist thing I've heard in a long time.

Let's see, that would be the same as a coach having his cell phone on his belt or what about the stop watch in the back pocket.

None of those are listed as items to have, but then there is not a rule against them either.

Good umpires would simply ignore them and concentrate on the game.

In your situation, the board member did not know what he was talking about, under any rule codes.

Thanks
David

[LDUB]

Originally posted by David B
Let's see, that would be the same as a coach having his cell phone on his belt or what about the stop watch in the back pocket.

None of those are listed as items to have, but then there is not a rule against them either.

No, you are wrong.

The Federation lists objects which a person in the coach's box can have, and all objects not on the list are not allowed.

That is very clear if you read 3-3-1H

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley

Could you cite the rule you're referring to?

Thanks.

FED 3-3-1i is the appropriate rule.
3-3-1 A coach, player, substitutem, attendant or any other bench personnel shall not:

i - have any object in his posession in the coach's box other tnan a stop watch. rule book, scorebook, a Personal Digital Assistant (PDA) or comparable electronic score-recording device which shall be used for scorekeeping purposes only.

************************************************** ********
Notice that after it says PDA it says comparable electronic score-recording device. That does not include your standard issue indicator. So as I stated, in FED, if a coach is using an indicator in the coach's box, he is over the line by rule. But again, I'm not going to say anything as long as he doesn't use this device to argue. If the coach comes to me and questions whether it is ball 4 or not, as long as he doesn't refer to the indicator, he's okay (in my opinion).

A smart coach will keep the indicator out of sight but a problem may arise if the opposing coach sees it and makes a complaint. Then the coach will have to lose the indicator while he is in the coach's box.

As far as using an indicator in the dugout, what is the problem? Again, as long as they don't use the indicator to question or argue, there shouldn't be a problem.

I think that it is a coach's duty to know the count so he can direct his team. This also keeps him from constantly asking "What's the count, Blue?" after I've given the count verbally and on the hands (bozo's)!

[officialtony]

It seems most have missed your point here.
There is NO rule prohibiting anyone " in the dugout " from using an indicator.
NONE.
Hopefully that answers your question.
The rest of the input is " also " information and not germaine to your question.

You did modify it somewhat by saying " or anywhere on the field ". It is illegal to have one in the coach's box. ( Rule was already cited for you. )

Who in the world is going to make that call??????



Also, FYI, FED is National Federation of High Schools which governs high school athletics and their rules in the United States. Most local associations use some form of their rules in all sports and nearly ALL high schools adhere to FED rules completely.

[Edited by officialtony on Jun 7th, 2005 at 08:30 AM]