The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Baseball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 01, 2005, 04:31am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 842
Send a message via AIM to cowbyfan1 Send a message via Yahoo to cowbyfan1
Fed rules. Pitcher throwing fast ball slow enough he could not get a speeding ticket in a school zone. Curverball comes in, does not break. Batter does not flinch at all and takes it in the helmet. All to obvious he was wanting to take it as my deade Granny could have moved out of the way.

Do you give him first??

I personnaly am torn about it. I can see both ways. Yeah it is in the head and most people would not say a word to give him first. But you know there will be people still saying he has to move per the rules. I would be happy to give him first with the slightest of movement to "avoid" but like I said, he did not even flinch.

Let's play it this way too. Batter ducks his head into the strike zone and takes it there. Call it a strike and keep him at home? This really isn't 3rd world as I have see batters come really close to doing this, mostly on big breaking curves.
__________________
Jim

Need an out, get an out. Need a run, balk it in.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 01, 2005, 05:25am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 13
The only variable that's not in your post that I think should contribute to your decision is the player's age.

If he has enough time once the pitch is thrown to go get a Gatorade, come back and take it in the head I'd call a dead ball and send him back to the box. As a matter of fact, I've had to call that once so far this spring. The only difference was he took it in the shoulder.

If he puts his head in the strike zone, I think its HTBT. Unless I was certain he failed to attempt to get out of the way, I'd give him the base. Poor reflexes shouldn't be penalized.

With all that said, either way you go its a tough call. This past weekend during a tournament (15u division), we had four hit batsmen in one game. Fastballs and breaking balls. Nothing malicious or intentional and we had already discussed during our pregame that if the PU wasn't sure about B1's actions, we'd go to BU. With each hit batsmen the defensive coach barked but each time they got a base without a PU/BU conference.

You've got to go with what they give you, either way someone won't be happy.

IG3
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 01, 2005, 06:02am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CT
Posts: 2,439
Quote:
Originally posted by cowbyfan1
Fed rules. Pitcher throwing fast ball slow enough he could not get a speeding ticket in a school zone. Curverball comes in, does not break. Batter does not flinch at all and takes it in the helmet. All to obvious he was wanting to take it as my deade Granny could have moved out of the way.

Do you give him first??

I personnaly am torn about it. I can see both ways. Yeah it is in the head and most people would not say a word to give him first. But you know there will be people still saying he has to move per the rules. I would be happy to give him first with the slightest of movement to "avoid" but like I said, he did not even flinch.
I understand what you are getting at here but did you ever stop to concider the old "deer in the headlights" problem? When many youth batters see the ball coming for them (especially the head), many of them just freeze. I don't care how slow the ball is coming in, a lot of them just don't know what to do. As a PU, you can usually tell when a player is "hunting for a free ride". In almost any HBP in the helmet, B1's getting 1st.

Quote:
Originally posted by cowbyfan1 Let's play it this way too. Batter ducks his head into the strike zone and takes it there. Call it a strike and keep him at home? This really isn't 3rd world as I have see batters come really close to doing this, mostly on big breaking curves.
Again, working youth players can be fun here. B1, by ducking down is trying to avoid the pitch. And again, the PU has to really see what happened. I'm not going to committ to a yes or a no here because it is really a HTBT situation.
__________________
When in doubt, bang 'em out!
Ozzy
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 01, 2005, 07:37am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Winchester, VA
Posts: 458
Quote:
Originally posted by ozzy6900

Quote:
Originally posted by cowbyfan1 Let's play it this way too. Batter ducks his head into the strike zone and takes it there. Call it a strike and keep him at home? This really isn't 3rd world as I have see batters come really close to doing this, mostly on big breaking curves.
Again, working youth players can be fun here. B1, by ducking down is trying to avoid the pitch. And again, the PU has to really see what happened. I'm not going to committ to a yes or a no here because it is really a HTBT situation.
HUH?!?
Pitch is IN THE STRIKE ZONE and B gets hit?
Dead Ball, Strike, Stay right there Bubba [unless it's strike 3/ OUT].
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 01, 2005, 07:45am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,577
this is (was) a POE for us this year. Batter does not make an attempt to avoid, call the pitch and keep him in the box. That doesnt cause me any qualms at all.

Obviously, a pitch in the SZ that hits a batter is a strike.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 01, 2005, 08:44am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 111
If the pitched ball is a strike (swinging strike or strike by pitch location), the HBP penalty is not enforced; The ball is declared dead.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 01, 2005, 09:41am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,772
Curve ball is different

Quote:
Originally posted by cowbyfan1
Fed rules. Pitcher throwing fast ball slow enough he could not get a speeding ticket in a school zone. Curverball comes in, does not break. Batter does not flinch at all and takes it in the helmet. All to obvious he was wanting to take it as my deade Granny could have moved out of the way.

Do you give him first??

I personnaly am torn about it. I can see both ways. Yeah it is in the head and most people would not say a word to give him first. But you know there will be people still saying he has to move per the rules. I would be happy to give him first with the slightest of movement to "avoid" but like I said, he did not even flinch.

Let's play it this way too. Batter ducks his head into the strike zone and takes it there. Call it a strike and keep him at home? This really isn't 3rd world as I have see batters come really close to doing this, mostly on big breaking curves.
I will give a batter much more latitude on a curve since he may be waiting for the ball to break.

So most of the time he's going to get first with no hesitation.

You will know the obvious ones when the batter intentionally gets hit and you keep him in the box.

But if any doubt on a curve, give him first.

Thanks
DAvid
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 01, 2005, 10:42am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CT
Posts: 2,439
Quote:
Originally posted by cbfoulds
Quote:
Originally posted by ozzy6900

Quote:
Originally posted by cowbyfan1 Let's play it this way too. Batter ducks his head into the strike zone and takes it there. Call it a strike and keep him at home? This really isn't 3rd world as I have see batters come really close to doing this, mostly on big breaking curves.
Again, working youth players can be fun here. B1, by ducking down is trying to avoid the pitch. And again, the PU has to really see what happened. I'm not going to committ to a yes or a no here because it is really a HTBT situation.
HUH?!?
Pitch is IN THE STRIKE ZONE and B gets hit?
Dead Ball, Strike, Stay right there Bubba [unless it's strike 3/ OUT].
Sure, try this one out - curve ball high, would be called a ball if left alone but batter ducked down and got nailed on the way down. Ball not in the strike zone but the helmet is. That is why I said HTBT! Obviously, if the pitch is in the strike zone and the batter gets hit there he goes no where and it's a dead ball. I thought we all knew that - but there I go taking thngs for granted again.
__________________
When in doubt, bang 'em out!
Ozzy
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 01, 2005, 11:25am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Winchester, VA
Posts: 458
Well, Ozzy, I thought so too: thus the HUH?!?

I'm having a hard time visualising your hypothetical:
"...batter ducked down and got nailed on the way down. Ball not in the strike zone but the helmet is."; but that may be just me trying to read in something that's not there.

I was mostly responding to:
Quote:
originally posted by cowbyfan1
Batter ducks his head into the strike zone and takes it there.
Which ain't no HTBT.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 01, 2005, 11:42am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: CT
Posts: 2,439
Quote:
Originally posted by cbfoulds
Well, Ozzy, I thought so too: thus the HUH?!?

I'm having a hard time visualising your hypothetical:
"...batter ducked down and got nailed on the way down. Ball not in the strike zone but the helmet is."; but that may be just me trying to read in something that's not there.

I was mostly responding to:
Quote:
originally posted by cowbyfan1
Batter ducks his head into the strike zone and takes it there.
Which ain't no HTBT.
Okay, 15 yard penalty for both of us!

__________________
When in doubt, bang 'em out!
Ozzy
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 01, 2005, 11:42am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 813
Quote:
Originally posted by cowbyfan1
Fed rules. Pitcher throwing fast ball slow enough he could not get a speeding ticket in a school zone. Curverball comes in, does not break. Batter does not flinch at all and takes it in the helmet. All to obvious he was wanting to take it as my deade Granny could have moved out of the way.

Do you give him first??

I personnaly am torn about it. I can see both ways. Yeah it is in the head and most people would not say a word to give him first. But you know there will be people still saying he has to move per the rules. I would be happy to give him first with the slightest of movement to "avoid" but like I said, he did not even flinch.

Let's play it this way too. Batter ducks his head into the strike zone and takes it there. Call it a strike and keep him at home? This really isn't 3rd world as I have see batters come really close to doing this, mostly on big breaking curves.
Very dependent upon level of play and how obvious the action, or lack thereof, is to all---judgment factor. If any doubt exists then award the base. Fastballs typically get awards.

As for the head in the strikezone, I once kept a batter there that got hit in the helmet after ducking a gravity aided curve (JV level). It was very obvious to me, and apparently to others. Very few comments came after my explanation that the pitch was in the zone, and it was strike 3 on the batter. Just be certain the pitch was there---any benefit of doubt goes to batter in this situation.


Just my opinion,

Freix
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 01, 2005, 09:28pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 55
Ozzy/cbfoulds,

"Okay, 15 yard penalty for both of us!" Is this a FED/NCAA ruling? I've been through my OBRs twice and can't find anything about this? Where is it assessed from? )
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 01, 2005, 09:38pm
DG DG is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,022
Quote:
Originally posted by Saltydog
Ozzy/cbfoulds,

"Okay, 15 yard penalty for both of us!" Is this a FED/NCAA ruling? I've been through my OBRs twice and can't find anything about this? Where is it assessed from? )
15 yard penalty, he is half way to 1B as you are trying to get him to understand he needs to return to the plate for sticking his head in the strike zone to get hit.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 02, 2005, 12:47am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,474
A little different...

than ducking and not moving etc.

I tend to feel there is an area that belongs to the pitcher and that is where he should pitch the ball. This area is more than just the strike zone - every pitch does not necessarily need to be a strike. The pitcher is also allowed area to throw "balls" - tempt the batter to swing at pitches out of the zone.

I also feel there is an area that belongs to the batter. The two areas are separate and do not intersect.

If the batter encroaches on the pitcher's area I may not give him first - I will keep him there and call the pitch based upon its location.

If the pitcher encroaches on the batter's area... that's a poor pitch and the batter gets first if he is hit.

This is for High School and and up. At lesser levels, there is no telling where the pitch will go so now the pitcher's responsibility goes up - I'm more likely to award 1st.
__________________
"There are no superstar calls. We don't root for certain teams. We don't cheat. But sometimes we just miss calls." - Joe Crawford
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 02, 2005, 02:17am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 842
Send a message via AIM to cowbyfan1 Send a message via Yahoo to cowbyfan1
Well I stated it is Fed rules, thus High School (mostly 8-)) The batter made it clear he was gonna take the pitch and even admitted that since it was so slow afterwards. It really floored me as you figure some self preservation would kick in and he would move a little and thus I could easily award him 1st with no afterthought about it.
The general rule of thumb is in the head give him the base. I have also had guys say never call one in the zone unless it so blatently obvious that it was in the zone. I can buy both and have no problem with it. This was a tuff one to chew tho since the pitch was so slow.
__________________
Jim

Need an out, get an out. Need a run, balk it in.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:09am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1