What a nightmare!

[GarthB]

Do you think any of the kids playing that game gave a rats a55 the he dusted the bases or overstepped his bounds on a couple of calls. They could care less. Did they have fun? If they did, that is all that matters.

This thinking is what produces high school players and coaches who think the hands are part of the bat and home plate is foul territory.

If fun is all that matters, get rid of the coaches and parents, give them a wheel barrow of candy and soda and an X-box.

Does the phrase "anything worth doing is worth doing right" mean anything to you?

[cmckenna]

Huh... I don't recall any mention in the ORIGINAL POSTERS message where he stated that the person he worked with got any of the calls wrong or mis applied any rules, just that he stepped on somebody's ego.

So what you are saying is that it is more important how the umpires look and that they don't step on any big dogs toes that it is for the kids to have fun. How many of these LL players go on to play a highr level anyway? I know from our league we are lucky if 1 or 2 from each year continue on to play at a higher level.

Why didn't you address any of my other points garth, like having a volunteer spirit and using your knowledge and expertise to help your youth leagues.

I do High School basketball and guess what... Every Saturday and Sunday during basketball season, I go and run the floor with the 4th and 5th grade rec players in our town for free so that they can have their games.

[mbyron]

Originally posted by GarthB
If fun is all that matters, get rid of the coaches and parents, give them a wheel barrow of candy and soda and an X-box.

Does the phrase "anything worth doing is worth doing right" mean anything to you? [/B]

I'll preface this with saying that, with respect to umpiring, I agree with you, Garth.

But I heard a variant of that expression recently: "anything worth doing is worth doing badly." I'm a bad pianist, but it's worth doing all the same.

I would say that the difference with umpiring is: when you screw up the game (or umpiring) badly enough, it's no longer even baseball. Part of learning a team sport is discipline, which can't be approximated by ignoring the rules.

That's why I agree with Garth's application of his phrase to baseball, even if it lacks application more generally.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by cmckenna
Huh... I don't recall any mention in the ORIGINAL POSTERS message where he stated that the person he worked with got any of the calls wrong or mis applied any rules, just that he stepped on somebody's ego.

So what you are saying is that it is more important how the umpires look and that they don't step on any big dogs toes that it is for the kids to have fun. How many of these LL players go on to play a highr level anyway? I know from our league we are lucky if 1 or 2 from each year continue on to play at a higher level.

Why didn't you address any of my other points garth, like having a volunteer spirit and using your knowledge and expertise to help your youth leagues.

I do High School basketball and guess what... Every Saturday and Sunday during basketball season, I go and run the floor with the 4th and 5th grade rec players in our town for free so that they can have their games.

1. I responded to your comment: "Did they have fun? If they did, that is all that matters" and I stand by my response.

2. I have found over the past 30 years that most umpires who look and work as described by the original poster make calls and rulings in similar fashion.

3. I volunteered my time to train youth umpires and coaches for five years. The umpires that bothered to show up progressed so much faster than those that didn't they got tired of working with them, graduated to high level ball and no longer do youth ball.

4. I have been involved with youth organizations for the past 30 years. I volunteer at my church and service organizations. No need to lecture my about volunteering just because I decide not to volunteer my umpiring.

Thanks for your input.


[Edited by GarthB on May 16th, 2005 at 11:43 PM]

[GarthB]

Originally posted by mbyron

I'll preface this with saying that, with respect to umpiring, I agree with you, Garth.

But I heard a variant of that expression recently: "anything worth doing is worth doing badly." I'm a bad pianist, but it's worth doing all the same.

I would say that the difference with umpiring is: when you screw up the game (or umpiring) badly enough, it's no longer even baseball. Part of learning a team sport is discipline, which can't be approximated by ignoring the rules.

That's why I agree with Garth's application of his phrase to baseball, even if it lacks application more generally. [/B]

I have a degree in Music, but I, too, am a poor pianist. (My major was percussion and music education) However, when I screw up a 12 bar blues progression, a kid doesn't get sent back to first, called out or ejected.

[mbyron]

Originally posted by GarthB
However, when I screw up a 12 bar blues progression, a kid doesn't get sent back to first, called out or ejected.

Exactly.

[David B]

Originally posted by GarthB

I have a degree in Music, but I, too, am a poor pianist. (My major was percussion and music education) However, when I screw up a 12 bar blues progression, a kid doesn't get sent back to first, called out or ejected. [/B]

... and you don't have to worry about some parents yelling at you about your ability etc.,

My 7 year old is now playing and he's asked me on several occasions about the umpire's calls. "dad why did they call him safe when I tagged him before he got to the bag?"

Contrary to some opinions the kids do know the difference even at a young age.

I have yet to "enlighten" my son that the umpires don't hustle, don't get in position and don't care,

so far I've just told him that the umpire must have not seen him tag him first, or that the umpire couldn't see it from where he was.

But they notice, and for sure the parents do.

Thanks
David

[dddunn3d]

with David B. My son has been playing for awhile now (he's eleven), and I have explained to him(and his teammates) that the umpires in our league are all reluctant volunteers recruited from the ranks of the parents. I tell them to remember that these guys are not trained umpires, so that when there are bad calls, just forget it and move on. I also tell them that over time the bad calls even out for and against.

I have also been able to turn this into a positive. I have been telling my son that since these volunteers call balls and strikes inconsistently, when you have two strikes against you, don't give the umpire the chance to call a third strike. This year he's beginning to understand what I mean, and is now becoming more aggressive and tough to get out, even with two strikes.

[thumpferee]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cmckenna

I am a director

[Edited by thumpferee on May 17th, 2005 at 05:56 AM]

[cmckenna]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by thumpferee

Originally posted by cmckenna

I am a director

[Edited by thumpferee on May 17th, 2005 at 05:56 AM]

What does taking this completly out of context do for any of the above conversation? Other than make your reply useless.

[cmckenna]

Garth,

I am not arguing the point about training, I feel training is very important and I wish I had more time to get more myself. It was easier for my basketball training because it was done at a time of the year when I was not so busy.

The point I was trying to make is that there are some organizations that do not have the benefit of having thousands of people to draw from nor the financial resources to provide professional umpires at this level. You have to take what you can get. We do our best to provide the teams with the best quality we can. Would we like to have better, sure but dreams don't always come true.

I take everything I learn here as well as what I learn from talking to those who are higher level umpires and attempt to apply it every time. I agree that there are some who don't want to learn and think they know it and can do it.

It's just that every time someone mentions LL on here, it is a broad generalization. Maybe someday someone on here will have the nads enough to post a story about a good experience they had working a LL game. But it is always easier to bash.

I am sure no one on here can say that they were perfect their first time out.

As far as what I said about keeping it in perspective... that was in reference to calling an out with the thumb... If the call was right, do you think anyone other than the other ump really cared that he used his thumb ???

[Dave Hensley]

Some general comments on this overall thread.

The premise of the original post in this thread seems to be something along the lines of "I never understood why so many of you guys stereotype Little League umpires as clueless nimrods until I worked with this guy yesterday, yada yada yada, and now I understand..."

As my 9th grade English teacher Mrs. Byrd taught me so many years ago, stereotyping is a lazy man's way to forming an opinion on just about anything and everything. Are there nimrod Little League umpires? Yes, of course there are, for a whole host of logical reasons. But the truth is, and we see evidence of this ALL THE TIME, there are nimrod umpires working at every level - the "hobos" Kyle mentioned working high school ball (that was a great post, Kyle), the the NCAA D1 umpires who botched a simple batter interference call on live national TV the other day, and the list goes on and on.

As a participant and observer of the Little League program on both a macro and micro level for about 15 years now, my observation is that Little League has made and continues to make reasonable progress in improving its program in a number of areas, most notably with rule changes that in general are "mainstreaming" it to be more consistent with "real baseball" rules, and secondly with respect to its umpire development program. Simply comparing the quality of umpiring in the televised games - regional championships and LLWS games - over the last 8 years or so since they've been televised, shows a clear and significant improvement in the quality of the umpiring.

Little League is unique among national youth baseball programs in the establishment of formal umpire training programs in each of its 8 U.S. regions. Many of them aren't perfect (and in my experience some of them are next to worthless, so far) but at least it's a start, and it's more of a start than any other youth program.

Anyone who knows me knows I am frequently an outspoken and politically-incorrect, overly-blunt critic of some of Little League's decisions and overall operation. When I criticize it, though, I stick to SPECIFICS and name names, rather than painting everybody in the LL hierarchy with a broad, general brush of incompetence.

The stereotyping and general bashing of "LL umpires" in this thread reminds me of the Saturday Night Live character the Church Lady, doing her little Superior Dance.

[fwump]

This is a common thread on this board and frankly, I don't understand why. I am a baseball Dad and an umpire. I have watched as much youth baseball as I have officiated. My son never played LL. I don't know LL rules nor have I ever umpired a LL game. I have never seen nor had as a partner the person described in the original post.

We have travelled throughout TX and bordering states attending youth baseball tournaments (USSSA, Super Series,
Triple Crown) and with few exeptions the umps have been excellent. Well trained and professional. And I will add that the organization that I work for holds these same standards.

The worst umpiring I have seen so far in all 10 yrs that my son has been playing organized baseball have been HS JV umpires by any comparison without question!


Mike

[LMan]

Originally posted by cmckenna
Do you think any of the kids playing that game gave a rats a55 the he dusted the bases or overstepped his bounds on a couple of calls. They could care less. Did they have fun? If they did, that is all that matters...... We try to train our volunteers as best we can .....
I would rather take someone who keeps the game fair and shows up in jeans and a t-shirt any day than have to cancel a game the kids are looking forward to because we have no one to umpire.

Keep in in friggin perspective folks. [Edited by cmckenna on May 16th, 2005 at 09:15 PM]

1. so if they care less (which I dispute..whoever heard of LL parents who "didnt care less" LOL) , NO ONE at any of your games EVER complains about any umpire error...wow, what a nice environment that must be...I certainly will come and call games in that fantasy world...I wont have to worry about any mechanics or rules!

2. I have little confidence in your 'training' program if it comes from an attitude like this.

3. how can your 'umpires' "keep the game fair" if they dont know the rules and/or dont know proper procedures and mechanics?? Oh, I forGOT......no one complains about umpire mistakes in your world! I bet you have nothing to do!

4. My "friggin" perspective is fine. Yours appears to come from excessive defensiveness....as in most things, its not that 'you cant afford good umpires,' your parents simply will not pay for them. You generally get what you pay for...but if you are frustrated because you are not given the funds to hire better-trained umps, dont vent at us. You know where the cyber-door is

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by thumpferee

Of all the conversations we have had regarding LL umpires, I never really understood where some of you were coming from.

IMO, it's nothing to do with the phrase "LL Umpire" I tend to group umpires in the following categories.

1. "Money Only" - This group at least in Amateur Baseball is propbaly the largest. These types of umpires are in a way an assignor's dream meaning they will go anywhere as long as they get paid. They could care less what type of rating they get or what coaches think etc. Do the game and get paid.

The reason I say Assignor's "dream" is that depending upon your area there are all types of leagues and umpires are at a minimum so an assignor knows he can count on this particular group to cover the games that the more talented umpires do not want.

2. "Prestige / Power" - This group fits more with LL/Babe Ruth in that the umpire simply wants to be recognized as someone in Control,etc. Not really interested in learning the rules but simply "Hey I'm the umpire and what I say goes"

3. Having Fun and wanting to Learn - This type of umpire is willing to learn and improove him/herself. No ego to bruise but wants to do a good job. Don't get me wrong - this group also likes the pay however they are willing to work for it. This group of umpires are normally the ones who get a good brand of baseball. Legion, HS playoffs (sometimes), etc.

I don't want to break it down further but umpires are also refereed to as

A. "By the Book"
B. Common sense
C. Combination of both

Based on one thread, I do not know what kind of category to put your partner in but I recommend talking to him after the game to see if he is REALLY interested in umpiring or was "thrown in the jungle" because no one else wanted to.

I started in LL and IMO it was good for me. I learned my mistakes and also learned the rules because in LL you will see all kinds of things.

IMO, what's missing today is a real good mentoring program. I was fortunate that when I became HS certified I worked quite often with a veteran official who taught me the ropes not only in the mechanics / rules but in Game Management which is IMO the "nuts and bolts of umpiring"

To sum up, there are "Smitty's" in just about every level of umpring. I'm sure Joe West "paid his dues" but I do not like his umpiring skills in dealing with major league ball-players.

Pete Booth