Award 1 or 2 Bases?

[jicecone]

Originally posted by LMan
original post said we have a DEAD ball carried into the dugout. A dead ball carried into DBT? If the ball was already dead, so what? You can throw an already- dead ball into the concession stand, and theres no penalty. I dont get this at all.

I knew sooner or later the lawyers would perform their technical review.

The ball was live until brought into the dugout, at which point the catcher choked it to death and it became dead just as he got there. Only kidding

[akalsey]

Originally posted by mcrowder
In other rulesets, a ball carried out of play is a 1-base award from the TODB (reference a player catching the ball and then going over a wall). Sans a rule in this particular rulebook, I would be tempted to go for consistency here, and award 1 base from when the catcher left the field of play.

In OBR, runners only get a base if the fielder falls. Stepping out of play doesn't count.

5.10(f) "... If a fielder after making a catch steps into a bench, but does not fall, the ball is in play and runners may advance at their own peril."

[mcrowder]

Most of us don't have open dugouts (like MLB), and on most of our fields, the dugout is DBT. The rule you are quoting is meant to be applied to open dugouts.

Surely you're not suggesting that if, in MLB, an outfielder jumps the fence and lands among the fans, but keeps his feet, that he's not entered DBT...

[jicecone]

Federation Rules.

[bob jenkins]

It's not covered. So we can award:

1) 1-base by extending the "catch and carry", or

2) 2-bases by extending the "thrown out of play" or the "intentional catch and carry"

I'd vote for #1. While the carry was "intentional" it wasn't done to "trap" the runner (as is the intent of the intentional catch and carry). The "thrown out of play" 2-base award is designed to reflect that runners are (usually) advancing during the throw and the benefit of any doubt should be given to the runner that he would have reached the base to which he was advancing and then the next base on the overthrow, even if the ball had stayed on the field.

Of course, the best option would be to call time when and ask the coach what he wanted. Then, rule on the dead ball verbal appeal.

[akalsey]

Jicecone: I understand, but MC was applying an OBR interp in the absence of a Fed one. So I thought the OBR rule was relevant.

MC:

Perhaps not, but you do have an opening of some sort into the dugout into which a player might step while fielding a ball.

What if you're playing an OBR game where the fences don't extend all the way out? It entirely possible for an outfielder to step out of play just after making a catch. Are you going to award bases if that happens?

OBR does say "When a fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a bench or stand, or falls across ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field." The word "falls" is used twice and then an exception is given when a fielder who steps, but does not fall, into one of the DBTs.

If the fielder keeps his feet (jumps over a rail and lands on his feet), has he fallen into DBT? Does the exception for benches apply to other DBTs? Is there any casebook reference that covers this?

[LMan]

Originally posted by jicecone

I knew sooner or later the lawyers would perform their technical review.

The ball was live until brought into the dugout, at which point the catcher choked it to death and it became dead just as he got there. Only kidding

[mcrowder]

I have definitely seen, in OBR (including MLB), an outfielder make a catch in play, have the batter rung out, and then have the outfielder stay on his feet, but enter DBT (or the stands). Runners ALWAYS get 1 base from when the outfielder entered DBT. The dugout's a bit different because of the falling/standing exception, and because it's a grey area between DBT and LBT in some parks.

[thumpferee]

Originally posted by jicecone
Fed. Varsity game. R1, R2, first and second. B1 hits double. R1 & R2 score easily. Throw comes into catcher. Coaches insists that first runner misses home plate and wants catcher to go into dugout and tag the runner. (Why, because he is a experienced , knowledgeable varsity HS coach?)

Anyway, Catcher goes into dugout to tag runner. We have a dead ball carried into the dugout. What should the award be for the B1 that is now standing on second? 1 or 2 Bases? References would help.

Next question would be, when the ball is made live again, would you allow the appeal at home or would you consider the catcher leaving the field to tag the runner a play?

I would also like to think awarding R2 home for the stupidity of the coach is the right thing to do, but have to go with a one base award on the original sitch.

[DG]

The coach may have been experienced but he was not very smart, because he could call time and make a dead ball appeal of a runner missing a base, and never sent his catcher into the dugout. Also, for a runner who missed home, but has entered the dugout, the catcher need not tag the runner, but just stand at home with the ball and annunce the appeal, and this could be a live ball appeal.

Normally on a catch and carry it is a one base award unless intentional (umpire judgement), and then two base award. This was not a catch and carry like you might normally see, but it was intentional. The catcher took a live ball into the dugout, intentionally. It was live before he went in the dugout and dead when he crossed the dugout line. I don't think we can tag a runner out when the ball is dead, but we can award bases. I think I would award 2 bases for intentionally carrying a live ball into dead ball territory.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
It's not covered. So we can award:

1) 1-base by extending the "catch and carry", or

2) 2-bases by extending the "thrown out of play" or the "intentional catch and carry"

I'd vote for #1. While the carry was "intentional" it wasn't done to "trap" the runner (as is the intent of the intentional catch and carry). The "thrown out of play" 2-base award is designed to reflect that runners are (usually) advancing during the throw and the benefit of any doubt should be given to the runner that he would have reached the base to which he was advancing and then the next base on the overthrow, even if the ball had stayed on the field.

Of course, the best option would be to call time when and ask the coach what he wanted. Then, rule on the dead ball verbal appeal.

Thats pretty much what we agreed upon at our meeting. one base , don't let it happen again.

Thank you everyone for your input.

[UmpJM]

jicecone,

Not so fast there! I fear that you and your colleagues came to the wrong conclusion at your meeting.

The proper award in the situation you described in the inital post of this thread is 2 bases for any runners on base at the point in time that the catcher carried the ball into dead ball territory. That is, the BR, standing on 2B at that point in time (if I'm reading your description correctly) is awarded home.

By my read, only DG and, possibly Carbide Keyman (it's not clear from his response if he would award 2 bases from TOP, TOT, or Time that the ball became "out of play") have given you the correct answer to your question.

Let me try to illustrate by putting a "twist" in your inital siutation.

Let's imagine that everything happened as you described up until the point in time that the runner who may have missed home entered the dugout. Let's say he was "loitering" near the on-deck circle watching the play unfold and, seeing the batter arrive safely at 2B, starts walking back to the dugout. The imbecile coach instructs his catcher to throw the ball to the F5 (assuming said runner is returning to the 3B side dugout) so that he may tag the runner. The catcher attempts to comply with his coach's instruction, but, alas, the throw "gets away from him" in his excitement and sails over the dugout into dead ball territory.

What would your ruling be in terms of base awards? (Hint: The correct ruling would be two bases to any runners beyond the last base legally touched at the time the ball left the catcher's hand.)

In terms of the rules governing base awards, the situation you described is no different!

JM

[akalsey]

Just noticed an exception in the Little League rule book. In LL, if a fielder enters DBT but does not fall, there is no award of bases. The book actually says that the fielder must fall down in order for there to be a base award.

And some people think Fed makes up rules for no reason.

[David B]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
It's not covered. So we can award:

1) 1-base by extending the "catch and carry", or

2) 2-bases by extending the "thrown out of play" or the "intentional catch and carry"

I'd vote for #1. While the carry was "intentional" it wasn't done to "trap" the runner (as is the intent of the intentional catch and carry). The "thrown out of play" 2-base award is designed to reflect that runners are (usually) advancing during the throw and the benefit of any doubt should be given to the runner that he would have reached the base to which he was advancing and then the next base on the overthrow, even if the ball had stayed on the field.

Of course, the best option would be to call time when and ask the coach what he wanted. Then, rule on the dead ball verbal appeal.

I agree with Bob, time would be out and we would simply rule on the dead ball verbal appeal.

Since all of our coaches remain in the dugout, when the coach came out, I would have time at that point and go from there etc.,

Preventive officiating but it works. I guess I've learned to keep it simple.

Thanks
David

[aevans410]

Originally posted by CoachJM
jicecone,

Not so fast there! I fear that you and your colleagues came to the wrong conclusion at your meeting.

The proper award in the situation you described in the inital post of this thread is 2 bases for any runners on base at the point in time that the catcher carried the ball into dead ball territory. That is, the BR, standing on 2B at that point in time (if I'm reading your description correctly) is awarded home.

By my read, only DG and, possibly Carbide Keyman (it's not clear from his response if he would award 2 bases from TOP, TOT, or Time that the ball became "out of play") have given you the correct answer to your question.

Let me try to illustrate by putting a "twist" in your inital siutation.

Let's imagine that everything happened as you described up until the point in time that the runner who may have missed home entered the dugout. Let's say he was "loitering" near the on-deck circle watching the play unfold and, seeing the batter arrive safely at 2B, starts walking back to the dugout. The imbecile coach instructs his catcher to throw the ball to the F5 (assuming said runner is returning to the 3B side dugout) so that he may tag the runner. The catcher attempts to comply with his coach's instruction, but, alas, the throw "gets away from him" in his excitement and sails over the dugout into dead ball territory.

What would your ruling be in terms of base awards? (Hint: The correct ruling would be two bases to any runners beyond the last base legally touched at the time the ball left the catcher's hand.)

In terms of the rules governing base awards, the situation you described is no different!

JM

It most certainly is different.

5-1-3g states a ball becomes dead when a "thrown" or "pitched" ball leaves play. The ball in this situation is under player control.

There is no specific rule to cover this. Intentional catch and carry is the closest rule "by the book" that you can cite. With intentional catch and carry, even though the idea behind it is different, the player exhibits control when he commits the infraction. The problem lies that the penalty from intentional catch and carry is 2 bases from TOP. R2 was at bat at TOP.

You have to award a base (or bases) here though, I agree there.

[Edited by aevans410 on May 11th, 2005 at 08:37 AM]