Did he go?

[Robert G]

Runners on 1st & 2nd, I am PU, Bu is in C Slot.
B1 checks his swing & I ask my partner for Help "did he go"?
I caught him off guard & he did not react right away then gave the safe sign.Was I wrong for asking for his help with a right hand batter up? What if it was a lefty up?

2- I understand the V in a 2 man crew, but with none on & f8 makes a great catch in center who's call would it be?

3- Do you (PU) signal verbally when a infielder makes a catch at his shoe tops?
Thanks, Robert

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Robert G
Runners on 1st & 2nd, I am PU, Bu is in C Slot.
B1 checks his swing & I ask my partner for Help "did he go"?
I caught him off guard & he did not react right away then gave the safe sign.Was I wrong for asking for his help with a right hand batter up? What if it was a lefty up?

2- I understand the V in a 2 man crew, but with none on & f8 makes a great catch in center who's call would it be?

3- Do you (PU) signal verbally when a infielder makes a catch at his shoe tops?
Thanks, Robert

1 and 2: These are pregame things that you need to go over. According to the mechanics, you can ask your partner on any check swing. But remember at the NF level, it is up to you and only you to make that decision. In college you ask if the catcher requests appeal.

#2: If the centerfielder goes to his right, most of the time it is your call as the PU. But again, you need to discuss this and see what your partner does too. If he goes out, you assist in a call if needed, but you have the runners primarily.

#3: I personally verbally every out. You do not have to do it very loud, but you do it so that someone knows that you at least had an out. Just my opinion.

[Ump20]

Originally posted by Robert G
Runners on 1st & 2nd, I am PU, Bu is in C Slot.
B1 checks his swing & I ask my partner for Help "did he go"?
I caught him off guard & he did not react right away then gave the safe sign.Was I wrong for asking for his help with a right hand batter up? What if it was a lefty up?

2- I understand the V in a 2 man crew, but with none on & f8 makes a great catch in center who's call would it be?

3- Do you (PU) signal verbally when a infielder makes a catch at his shoe tops?
Thanks, Robert

1-I would only check BU in C on appeal (OBR). Some will differ but I do not see what help can be provided (other than BU screened by catcher or possibly a bunt) by the BU in that position with a RH batter. No angle.

2- Should be PU's call unless special circumstances discussed earlier perhaps fog or poor ligjting etc. In that case BU has to say "I'm on the ball" and PU has BR into second.

3- All outs should be signalled either verbally or with hand signal. Obvious outs call for a more subdued reaction.
Jim Simms /NYC

[Tim C]

.

[Edited by Tim C on Mar 26th, 2001 at 12:13 AM]

[JJ]

I agree, Tim C. I always tell my partner "If I come to you, tell me what you've got - don't just agree with me because of where you are". Of course, it does lead to an occasional word or two when the PU comes to me with nobody on base and a lefty up, and I ring a strike - but it's my judgement and my responsibility to give him what I've got if he comes to me.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Ump20

1-I would only check BU in C on appeal (OBR). Some will differ but I do not see what help can be provided (other than BU screened by catcher or possibly a bunt) by the BU in that position with a RH batter. No angle.

[/B]

The BU better be able to make a check swing call at some point. I think you are going to cause yourself some problem if you are doing a NF game if a coach asks for an appeal and you do not grant one. I am not saying do it on every other pitch, but you better grant appeals no matter where the BU is. What else do they have to do?

[Patrick Szalapski]

I'm also with Tee on this one. A BU in any position needs to be allowed to make the call. No matter where he is, a BU should say "Yes, he went!" if and only if he is 100% sure that the batter went. On a right handed batter, the BU in C is going to be 100% sure less often than the BU in A. The calls will reflect this, and all participants will get what they want.

And yes, it is good to cover these things when talking with your partner before the game.

P-Sz

[Blaine Gallant]

Well this debate has raged forever on every board.

While Tee sticks to his ask and yee shall recieve, I will stick to my assertions that in B or C, there is NO WAY, NO WAY, NO WAY, that the base umpire has a better view than the plate umpire.

I will ask, but it better be VERY APPARENT (LIKE HE TOTALLY SWUNG WHILE I FELL DOWN). Every time I see this, I see an arguement begins. I just think it is poor game management to have the base umpire in this position "overrule" the plate umpire. Unless the plate umpire had a brain fart or fell down, call safe, it is what most are expecting anyway.

Tee and I will forever disagree on this one.

Blaine

[Ump20]

Originally posted by JRutledge

The BU better be able to make a check swing call at some point. I think you are going to cause yourself some problem if you are doing a NF game if a coach asks for an appeal and you do not grant one. I am not saying do it on every other pitch, but you better grant appeals no matter where the BU is. What else do they have to do?

[/B]

It is clear that this subject has divergent opinions i.e. some think you can just as easily "see" the attempted swing of a left handed batter (LHB) in A as a righty (RHB). If so, what are you "looking" for? With a RHB I think you are looking for the bat head going past the front plane of the plate or the swing carrying the batter's hands more than half way past his body. I have heard some say with LHB you are looking to see if you see the barrel of the bat. That's at least a reference point.

I have a Minor League manual from the days of Umpire Development Program that requires in a three-man system that the PU check with the "proper BU". Thus with a lefty that would be the third base umpire in "D" not the umpire in "A" or "B". So it may be a "myth" or an old wives tail that it is foolish for coaches to ask for a check of LHB in "A". However, I think it is still a fairly prevalent belief. Thus you may be questioned if you treat it as "just the same".

In both OBR and FED I do appeal as PU even with a LHB. I agree in FED you should generally treat it the same as OBR. As PU I go to my partner must slower. As BU I generally mention to the coach or players that absent mirrors or video replay I don't have much help that I can add. I have never had the retort that it is the same appeal. They seem to understand. These types of appeals should be in moderation. PU should not let coaches appeal every inning otherwise you're not in control.

[JRutledge]

have the best angle. Sometimes a batter might go after a bad pitch. And when that happens the catcher might get in your way. That is when a PU might need to ask for an appeal. Especially at the lower levels (NF and below) because the catcher might be in your way to get a clear look.

[Tim C]

.

[Edited by Tim C on Mar 26th, 2001 at 12:14 AM]

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by Robert G
Runners on 1st & 2nd, I am PU, Bu is in C Slot.
B1 checks his swing & I ask my partner for Help "did he go"?
I caught him off guard & he did not react right away then gave the safe sign. Was I wrong for asking for his help with a right hand batter up? What if it was a lefty up?

No, Robert, you may ask for help on a half-swing any time you feel you were blocked on the play. BU must be alert to the possibility and ready to respond. It doesn't matter where BU is located, he must respond when asked.

As for the other issues raised with respect to who has the best view, among other things, I refer you to my 3-Part series at eUmpire.com entitled "Help on a Half Swing". If you have subscribed you may view it by checking the baseball archive. I'm sure you would find it helpful and very instructive on such matters.

Originally posted by Robert G
2- I understand the V in a 2 man crew, but with none on & f8 makes a great catch in center who's call would it be?

The currently accepted PRO mechanic is for the BU in 'A' to have the F8 coming straight in, or straight back, and moving to his left IF the BU decides to go out to make the call. If the BU comes in an pivots with the runner, the PU has this catch/no catch with no runners on base. In the event the F8 goes to his right, the PU will ALWAYS have the catch/no catch with no runners on base in the 2-man mechanics.

Originally posted by Robert G
3- Do you (PU) signal verbally when a infielder makes a catch at his shoe tops?

PU, if he makes that catch/no catch call, should ALWAYS "sell" the call with both a verbal call and a non-verbal catch/no catch signal. There are a few occasions when that call properly belongs to the BU, rather than the PU. On those occasions, the call must also be "sold" by the BU with both a verbal call and a non-verbal signal.

There are two purposes for making such a vociferous call. One is to give all the runners, including the batter-runner, the earliest possible opportunity to either continue or stop advancing hard, and/or return to their bases when no longer forced, and so prevent unnecessary injuries running the bases when the out has already been made or transforming easy returns into close tag plays. The second reason is to give your partner advice that another out has been made or not, and so allow him to decide whether to continue running, or return to his position, etc.

Cheers,

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by Tim C
Blaine takes a position that has NO RESEARCH or backing . . .

Blaine falls into a growing group of umpires . . . those who do not have the intestinal foritude to call what is required by rule . . .

They fall back into , "Gee I didn't have a good view" . . .

Again they are taking the easy way out . . . "ohhh, it is too tough to call" . . . and this from a BC umpire that claims to be a "Big Dog" . . .

Sorry Blaine, I don't buy it . . . you "see" and make the call.

Olympics, ha . . .

This is uncharacteristically confrontational of you, Tee! Is there some hidden reason you feel so strongly on this subject?

I don't think Blaine was advocating umpires take the "easy way out" on the "too tough" call. I think all he was saying was that, unless blocked, PU has the better view of this play DESPITE what the defense might think when they make their appeal. You know how I feel about base umpires overruling the plate umpire when the plate umpire has made a deliberate decision on the half swing, so we won't continue that debate here.

Either way, I don't see any justification for disparaging Blaine's abilities as an official on the strength of this one issue, do you? Perhaps you were only joking and omitted the obligatory "smilies", eh?

Cheers,

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by JRutledge

The BU better be able to make a check swing call at some point. I think you are going to cause yourself some problem if you are doing a NF game if a coach asks for an appeal and you do not grant one. I am not saying do it on every other pitch, but you better grant appeals no matter where the BU is. What else do they have to do?[/B]

Mr Rutledge,

While I respect your views on this, I do think you may have mis-read Mr Simm's post. He didn't say he wouldn't check when asked. He said he wouldn't check with BU in C UNLESS he was appealed to, presumably by the catcher or manager. In other words, he wouldn't go to BU in C on a half swing on his own volition without an appeal.

Cheers,

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Warren Willson

Mr Rutledge,

While I respect your views on this, I do think you may have mis-read Mr Simm's post. He didn't say he wouldn't check when asked. He said he wouldn't check with BU in C UNLESS he was appealed to, presumably by the catcher or manager. In other words, he wouldn't go to BU in C on a half swing on his own volition without an appeal.

Cheers, [/B]

I think you need to read again the entire post. My only point is that the PU should and can ask for any appeal at any time that the PU deems it necessary. There should not be a position that you say, "I should not go to them because they are on a certain position on the field," in a two man system. And in NF, a PU does not have to give an appeal if they feel they made the correct call. It is complete up to them whether to grant an appeal or not. I only interjected the asking for an appeal to illustrate that you do not say no just because the BU is in the C position or any position for that matter.

Peace