Did he go?

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I think you need to read again the entire post. My only point is that the PU should and can ask for any appeal at any time that the PU deems it necessary. There should not be a position that you say, "I should not go to them because they are on a certain position on the field," in a two man system. And in NF, a PU does not have to give an appeal if they feel they made the correct call. It is complete up to them whether to grant an appeal or not. I only interjected the asking for an appeal to illustrate that you do not say no just because the BU is in the C position or any position for that matter.

Peace

... I repeat that you all but accused Mr Simms of saying he wouldn't ask the BU in C when appealed to. The relevant sentence from your post is this:

"I think you are going to cause yourself some problem if you are doing a NF game if a coach asks for an appeal and you do not grant one." (my underline)

I repeat, Mr Simms did NOT say he wouldn't ask BU when appealed to, regardless of BU's position. He simply said he wouldn't ask BU in C without first being requested to. I hope I've made that clear. I really don't care what your points were. I have deliberately avoided entering the debate on that subject. I was simply correcting the wrong impression you gave, perhaps inadvertantly, over what Mr Simms had said in his post. Perhaps it was not I who needed to "read again the entire post".

Cheers,

[Edited by Warren Willson on Mar 25th, 2001 at 01:36 AM]

[Ump20]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I think you need to read again the entire post. My only point is that the PU should and can ask for any appeal at any time that the PU deems it necessary. There should not be a position that you say, "I should not go to them because they are on a certain position on the field," in a two man system. And in NF, a PU does not have to give an appeal if they feel they made the correct call. It is complete up to them whether to grant an appeal or not. I only interjected the asking for an appeal to illustrate that you do not say no just because the BU is in the C position or any position for that matter.

Peace [/B]

I've got a problem with that SIMM thing. I think that has nothing to do with umpiring but everything to do with 'puters. Warren, with the exception of that minor typo, has a wonderful command of the Queen's English. His view did echo what I was attempting to say. I will check at all levels, FED and OBR, EVEN THOUGH it is a LHB in "A". I will take whatever decision BU renders from "A" but if I really want a totally unbiased view with a LHB I will say "I was screened, Did he go?" or something similar. Obviously, umpires can and do disagree on this issue. I think it makes it imperative that you go over this in your pre-game conference. If I'm of the "you don't have a clue" school I could, as PU, be a bit upset when BU with LHB says "Yes he did". I know in my association of some 100 umpires most blues do not EXCPECT to overruled with LHB and umpire in "A".

It's Spring in New York. The sun is out. Play Ball! Jim SIMMS

[Blaine Gallant]

Originally posted by Tim C
Blaine takes a position that has NO RESEARCH or backing . . .

Blaine falls into a growing group of umpires . . . those who do not have the intestinal foritude to call what is required by rule . . .

They fall back into , "Gee I didn't have a good view" . . .

Again they are taking the easy way out . . . "ohhh, it is too tough to call" . . . and this from a BC umpire that claims to be a "Big Dog" . . .

Sorry Blaine, I don't buy it . . . you "see" and make the call.

Olympics, ha . . .

Tim:

Let's set one thing stright. I umpire in Nova Scotia, Not British Columbia. I live on the Best Coast rather than the West Coast.

Now, I said we would disagree, but you feel the need to question my abilites and my "guts". That is crap. I delayed a National Final once for 15 minutes so the crew would get a rule right. This cost me on my evaluation, but it was the right thing to do - get the correctable rule right. I would do it again.

Now, Warren made my point quite well. My point is and always will be, the plate umpire has the best view. I will always check and if my partner in B or C called strike, I would be very surprised. Why? Because unless I am asleep - which I am not - I will not miss something SO OBVIOUS that the man in B ro C can see.

Do I make mistakes - of course. What I will always advocate is to have the umpire who is in the best position make the call. I see this no different than in basketball, if I am on the baseline, why would my partner call a hold in the post that is 2 feet in front of me? It not only looks bad, but it is bad teamwork.

Now go ahead, take another shot. Since you questioned my albilities, I have worked 7 National tournaments, gold medal game in each, plate once, crew chief 3 times. I think that speaks volumes of my abilities.

Have a nice day.

Blaine

[Tim C]

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[Edited by Tim C on Mar 26th, 2001 at 12:15 AM]

[GarthB]

PLEASE.


The US/OZZY battle of the International War of Nationalistic Silliness, which began on Eteamz and found its way here is still experiencing armistice.

Let us pray cool heads prevail and that the US/Canadian forces do not create a similar battle, or even re-fight the War of 1812. Then again, burning the White House down with this administration might not be such a bad thing.

GB

[Ump20]

Originally posted by Tim C
Blaine,

You are still "just" an umpire.

I think your first post was your point . . . you think umpires in certain field positions shouldn't help . . . you are wrong and I am right.

Try to impress us as you will with your "Big Time" experience . . . I'll stick with the others on this board that know HOW to call a game of America's Pasttime.

Tee,

What happens if you only think you're "right"? Perhaps you are not right. I happen to agree with Blaine that there are umpires in the "wrong" position to properly appeal, not in terms of the rules per se but perception, appearance, and practicality. I can present support in terms of UDP "requiring" PU to check with the proper BU in a three-man system which would lead me to conclude that in a two-man system LHB, umpire in "A" ain't it. Or if he is "proper" his view is less ideal that BU in "D". I think to conclude anything about an umpire's ability solely on this relatively minor mechanics disagreement is to risk really being wrong.

If we put it to a vote in the Forum and 51%+ agree with Blaine and myself would you change your opinion or your mechanics? I doubt that. There is another possible element here that might be "local custom". Perhaps in your neck of the woods routinely appealing LHB to BU in "A" is accepted. If you feel comfortable with it continue to use it.

Some savvy umpire on the Internet said once that we have no clue as to the ability of an umpire based only upon how he conducts himself on the Internet. We have to see that umpire on the field. Hey this is just my opinion. I can say that if I was PU and I appealed to a BU I respected with a LHB in "A" and he ruled a Strike, I would simply move on --one strike closer to the end of the game and a cool one in the parking lot where we still might disagree but that is the right of professional umpires of amateur baseball. - Jim

[Tim C]

.

[Edited by Tim C on Mar 26th, 2001 at 12:16 AM]

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Tim C
I have posted several times the last couple of years that the BEST umpire (non-MLB) I ever worked with, Roy Kendell of BC, was Canadian.

Tee:

Don't you be picking on Blaine or Garth now. Blaine is the Big Kahoona in Nova Scotia who is setting up that Victoria Day clinic where I'm gonna teach those Bubbas how to say "ya'll." I'll be there four days. In that time I could teach the Pres how to say "Double U."

Garth is the new Co-Owner of UmpiresTalk and a staff writer for eUmpire.com. How can two such imminent people be wrong?

[Ump20]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

Tee:

Don't you be picking on Blaine or Garth now. Blaine is the Big Kahoona in Nova Scotia who is setting up that Victoria Day clinic where I'm gonna teach those Bubbas how to say "ya'll." I'll be there four days. In that time I could teach the Pres how to say "Double U."

Garth is the new Co-Owner of UmpiresTalk and a staff writer for eUmpire.com. How can two such imminent people be wrong?

************************************************** ********
Heard earlier this week on Letterman that Dubya had invented a new word -- hispanically. Must warm the nucleus of a former English teacher's heart! Jim from 'da city

[JRutledge]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Warren Willson

Originally posted by JRutledge

... I repeat that you all but accused Mr Simms of saying he wouldn't ask the BU in C when appealed to. The relevant sentence from your post is this:

"I think you are going to cause yourself some problem if you are doing a NF game if a coach asks for an appeal and you do not grant one." (my underline)

I repeat, Mr Simms did NOT say he wouldn't ask BU when appealed to, regardless of BU's position. He simply said he wouldn't ask BU in C without first being requested to. I hope I've made that clear. I really don't care what your points where. I have deliberately avoided entering the debate on that subject. I was simply correcting the wrong impression you gave, perhaps inadvertantly, over what Mr Simms had said in his post. Perhaps it was not I who needed to "read again the entire post".

Cheers,

I think you need to take what I said into context. I used the appeal statement as an example of what you should not do. I never said that he suggested that, but you do not make determinations about when to make an appeal just because of where the BU is located. And the point is that a coach is not going to buy that argument if they ask you for an appeal. And whether you think he said or did not say is not my point. You should not take the attitude at any point in my opinion on whether you ask for help on a check swing and base that on the BU position.

Stop thinking that everyone that injects a thought, they they are accusing someone of saying something. It just shows how flawed the argument that Mr. Simms made, because if he is making determinations based on where the BU is, then one can only assume that you would not want to ask if the BU was in a certain position. It is called debate and intellegent discussion. If he was not specific about the issue, me and anyone else is going to assume the other exclusions as well.

Peace.

[GarthB]

Tee:

Speaking of jumping to conclusions.....did you even read what I wrote? I requested that we NOT move in a certain direction. I did not accuse anyone of anything.

Perhaps, before you get your daily exercise of jumping to conclusions, you will consider what is actually written, not what you think someone meant.

Unlike your post, I will not characterize anything you said or did as stupid, just ill informed.


GB

[Tim C]

.

[Edited by Tim C on Mar 26th, 2001 at 12:17 AM]

[GarthB]

Apparently my intent was not as obvious as I had hoped. Originally it was to interject a little humor into a topic that appeared to be heading south. I am sorry that my attempt was either too subtle or too esoteric. Either way, you did not get it. That's okay.

Obviously no response to your continued attack will satisfy.....and none is appropriate when the allegations and subject matter are this silly.

I will try to meet the expectations of the owners of this board and will refrain from discussing this thread further. This is not shrinking into a hole, this is called appropriate behavior.

If you wish to insult me further but would like to meet the guidlines of this board, feel free to email me directly and you can use any language you'd like.

Have a nice day.

GB

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by Tim C
So here is what I suggest you do (it would be at least palitable too me) . . . if you are the PU and there is a checked swing that you "see" and know was not a swing, use old Warren's mechanic of saying "NO, he didn't GO!" at the TOP - then when asked to check simply say, "Hey, coach didn't ya hear me I said he didn't go!!!"

I have avoided entering this thread on the substance of the discussion, until now. Having been specifically named in this post, I simply cannot stand by and allow this sort of misinformation to remain uncorrected. Following is the approved professional mechanic, from JEA, for dealing with a check swing which the plate umpire clearly sees:

"All decisions on checked swings shall be called loudly and clearly by the plate umpire. If the pitch is a ball and the batter does not swing at the pitch, the mechanic to be used by the plate umpire is: 'Ball! No, he didn't go!' if the pitch is a ball but the batter commits on the checked swing, the mechanic to be used is: 'Yes, he went!' while pointing directly at the batter and then coming up with the strike motion." JEA Appendix 12 {my emphasis}

If there remains any doubt that this is the approved mechanic, it can also be found at Section 10.9 of the UDP Manual for the Two-Umpire System pp84-85.

So you can clearly see that this is NOT just "old Warren's mechanic"! Furthermore, while I admit advocating that an umpire should resist checking with his partner when he has clearly seen the half-swing checked, I have never advocated refusing to check except for such appeals that are deemed to be made too late - in which case the official should use OBR 9.01(c) for justification.

The problem with "hobby horses", Tee, is that they seldom take you anywhere and riding them too hard always makes you look childish!

Cheers,

[JJ]

Tim,
The only reason you say Mr Kendell is the best umpire you ever worked with is because you've never worked with.....(everyone fill in your favorite here)!

PS This is only a joke. I WAS going to insert "ME" in the blank, but others would find that a bit presumptuous...